Another DVLA 'lost in post' issue. Help please?

[feefofum]

Hi All,

 

Just come across this thread and have a similar problem to the guys who've been fined for not SORNing their vehicle even though they claim they did.

 

My boyfriend sold his van, along with a months tax. The new owner's details were recorded and duly sent off to the DVLA by normal first class post. (I was there when my boyfriend posted the letter).

 

2 months later he gets a £40 fine for failing to SORN vehicle. We replied with photocopy of document showing new owners details and explained that this was posted.

 

DVLA reply and say not good enough, fine's now £80, pay up.

 

We reply once again saying that they were penalising us for missing post?

 

They reply and say "pay up or else".

 

So now what should we do? My boyfriend was just gonna pay the £80, but now I see from this site that many others have asimilar problem with DVLA and missing post. Can we at least get the fine put back to £40 as there's no room within the 7 days of the original letter to appeal.

 

Advice greatly appreciated.

 

many thanks

[slick132]

Hi Feefofum,

 

I'd write again to DVLA and say you have no intention of paying ANY fine relating to SORN.

 

It is not your duty to SORN the van when you've sold it with valid road tax.

 

Your duty was to inform DVLA of the change of ownership, which you did.

 

They lost or misplaced the change of ownership doc't and you have supplied them with a copy so they can update their records as regards the new owner and the date of change.

 

Tell them to withdraw the penalty as this is not a SORN matter. Also say, if they disagree, they can take you to Court where you will produce your evidence of the change of ownership and you will seek damages from them for your wasted time in this matter.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Slick

[buzby]

What about the new Keeper- - was he not concerned that he didn't receive a V5 with HIS details on? If you turn the round, you can see why the DVLA will pursue this. If the original keeper simply says he sold it, then claims the V5 got lost without the new RK chasing the DVLA for a replacement (in which case your would have received a notice of re-registration) it problem seems greater than simply a SORN. In the absence of the new owner applying for a duplicate V5, it makes your position much worse.

[feefofum]

Hmm Buzby, This is what teh DVLA are kinda saying (I haven't got the original letters with me to write this up). The problem is, the new owner was Polish. Although we had an address for him which we filled in and posted off the the DVLA, if he was not premanantly registered at the address he gave us then he wouldn't receive post from DVLA (including the fine for not re-taxing/SORN which is why they've come after us)?

 

I'm going to at least write to them now and ask for the fine to be reduced to the original £40. Has anyone done this alread? (Have seen a similar tempalte but it bamboozles me with the legal speak and is pertaining to a fine from SORN only).

 

Cheers all

[buzby]

You can see where they're coming from - as if the transaction was kosher, at lease one of two requests for re-registration would have surfaced, the fact neither did puts you in an awkward position. Even if the new RKs address was incorrect, he would need to register it at some address in order to get a road tax disc, the fact this hasn't happened means you've a lot of hard work ahead!

 

However, have got any copy of the V5 you sent, showing the signature of the new Keeper? This may be your only hope of proving to the DVLA (or a court, if it comes to that) that you DID part with the vehicle and are no longer responsible for it.

[feefofum]

We did send a photocopy of the photocopy we took of the V5 we sent them, but it was a 'no go'with them. I suspect the guy who bought the van took it straight out of the country so no chance of tracing him either....

 

Whilst I'm in battle mode I can at least try to get the fine reduced back to £40. Will keep you posted. Cheers Buzby.

[buzby]

Good. Stick to your guns - as long as you have this, you are in a far better position. Irrespective of the SORN department's view, has they now taken your name off the van is a RK...? If not, I'd still pursue this - as the SORN is just a sideshow (albeit an expensive one!).

[slick132]

Whilst I happily bow to Buzby's greater experience, surely offering to pay the reduced fine will be seen as an admission of guilt, and they'll be less likely to back down.

 

Slick

[buzby]

There's method to the madness Slick, by offering or paying the amount would not be taken as admission (because you were being effectively browbeaten into doing so). By paying the lower amount, you still have £40 spare to raise a small claims court action against the DVLA for the return of your money AND the court costs. Since you are not required to have items sent to the DVLA signed for on delivery, if you can demonstrate you had the forms to send and did so, the court would have to find in your favour. I had this discussion with the Poole office of the DVLA and my dispute was suddenly resolved.

[Boobaby]

There's method to the madness Slick, by offering or paying the amount would not be taken as admission (because you were being effectively browbeaten into doing so). By paying the lower amount, you still have £40 spare to raise a small claims court action against the DVLA for the return of your money AND the court costs. Since you are not required to have items sent to the DVLA signed for on delivery, if you can demonstrate you had the forms to send and did so, the court would have to find in your favour. I had this discussion with the Poole office of the DVLA and my dispute was suddenly resolved.

 

Nearly the same problem as this thread..........

 

I am currently in dispute with the DVLA regarding a car that I sold for my son last year.

I duly sent off the V5 telling them the car had been sold. Thought no more about it then in May of this year I had a letter saying that they had not received the document so I wrote back and told them it had been sent in October, thought I remembered taking a copy but couldn't find it. Anyway letters back and forth etc. and then fines are the next thing to appear which of course I appealed, they disputed and the case ends up in the Magistrates Court. I prepared a response and sent it off only to then get a Court Summons to say this is now proceeding to Trial!!

All this because they did not receive a change of ownership - the whole world has gone mad!!! A Trial because I dared to question the validity of a fine for non receipt of a slip of paper. I know I sent it but I have no proof of delivery. Please can someone tell me where I stand and do we have to appear in Court etc.....??

I think I'm an intelligent woman but I'm losing my mind about this particular trivial matter and can't think straight:eek:

 

Boo

[slick132]

Buzby,

 

Playing devil's advocate for my own info -

 

Quote, "....if you can demonstrate you had the forms to send and did so, the court would have to find in your favour."

How WOULD you prove that you sent any doc's without Recorded Del'y.

 

I ask with ref also to my own case in this forum - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dvla/114305-whos-sorny-now.html where there is no proof that I sent in the SORN and DVLA have fined me.

 

Slick

[feefofum]

Boobaby, keep us informed of your outcome etc.

 

Thanks for the replies. There is no method in my madness other than I am under the impression I'll have no chance in court against big bad DVLA, therefore resigned to paying a fine. The best I can achieve for myself is making this fine a lesser amount. Will keep this thread updated however and maybe I'll find the gumption to take it further if they donlt accept my offer to pay £40.

[danny_kiernan]

Hello All,

 

This SORN issue seems to be becoming a pain for quite a lot of people now, so I would like to address some points:

 

Lost in Post:

 

Firstly, the lost in the post argument DOES hold water, the UPU (Universal Postal Union) Act states categorically, that all post remains the senders until it arrives at the recipients, except for the UK where the post becomes the recipients property as soon as it enters the postbox. This applies whether it is sent recorded delivery or not.

 

Letter to DVLA

• Make the DVLA aware that you know the UPU Act, include partial or full text from the Act in your reply to them.
  
• Fill out a 'lost in post' request to the Royal Mail, photocopy it (and any other correspondance from the Royal Mail) and send with your letter.
  
• Illustrate the point about the DVLA losing data, do a search on the net, they lose data all the time, feel free to quote any references, taken from reputable sources.

At County Court

• A county court judge may or may not be aware of the UPU act, depends on the judge you get, you have to make them aware, so it is worth putting that in your defence statement.
  
• Make sure you fill out a 'lost in post' form with the Royal Mail, this fulfills 2 functions:
  • It proves to the judge that you have looked for the lost in post document.
    
  • It puts the onus on the DVLA and the Royal Mail to sort it out and trust me, the DVLA and the Royal Mail won't be taking each other to court anytime soon.

  [*]Illustrate the point about the DVLA losing data, do a search on the net, they lose data all the time, feel free to quote any references, taken from reputable sources.

Civil Fines are Illegal

 

Civil fines/penalties - whatever they are dressed up as, are against the main constitutional document we have, the Bill of Rights - as has been proved by so many reclamations of parking/bank/dvla charges.

 

For both the DVLA and court, you can copy my template letter and adjust it to your own requirements - a copy is on this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dvla/113113-i-want-take-dvla.html

 

I wonder if any nice moderator will add it to the template library, pretty please

 

Arguing a Supplementary Charge

 

The DVLA will try to argue that a supplementary charge is allowed in the RTA 1988, however there are 2 flaws with this argument (at the moment):

1. The wording on the V5, states a penalty/fine (dependant on year received) - not a supplementary charge, so it falls under the Bill of Rights as an unlawful fine.
   
2. The RTA does not repeal the Bill of Rights, so is therefore governed by it, so supplementary charge is just a fine dressed up in a fancy outfit.

Hope that helps you out

 

Dani

[williamjohn323]

Got fined for not declaring sorn, sent them a photocopy of 1st class recorded delivery slip which the date of the stamp was plain of sending a envelope to DVLA ,in the envelope was the registration document to scrap the vehicle three months ago.

They replied saying they want to se the confirmation document from them saying that it has been scraped, which I did not received off them they still want me to pay £80 or go to court, Can anybody help with this Thanks

[Boobaby]

Boobaby, keep us informed of your outcome etc.

 

Thanks for the replies. There is no method in my madness other than I am under the impression I'll have no chance in court against big bad DVLA, therefore resigned to paying a fine. The best I can achieve for myself is making this fine a lesser amount. Will keep this thread updated however and maybe I'll find the gumption to take it further if they donlt accept my offer to pay £40.

 

Just to let you all know that my son and I went to Court with the so called big guys, present were:

Three Magistrates; Court Personnel;DVLA personnel plus their legal representative; my son and myself (the cost of all of these people having to be present beggers believe) anyway the DVLA presented their case my son presented his argument (does his mum proud!) along the lines of - No monetary gain, they had all the car purchasers details, plus we managed to produce a photocopy of original V5 that was sent and signed way back. Their case crumbled the Magistrates apologised for wasting our time and made mincemeat of the DVLA and the case was dismissed. So in otherwords a very large RASPBERRY to the DVLA we beat you

[dave]

What's the 'no monetary gain' bit?

[Guest 10110001]

If you tell DVLA you filed SORN when you did, then they should revoke the fine. Its the law.

 

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 sets out where an Act of Parliament authorises or requires any document to be delivered by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

An example of contrary intention is the document was not delivered to DVLA, and it was returned to you undeliverable by Royal Mail.

[williamjohn323]

This is what dvla say

The Agency actions may appear harsh, but the legal position is clear. It may help put matters into context if I explain the background to continuous registration (CR). DVLA is charged with maintaining and improving the accuaracy and integrity of the vehicle register on behalf of the secretary of state.It has been a legal requirement since January 1998 for the registered keeper of a vehicle to ensure that at all times,it is either licensed or a statutory off road notification (SORN) declaration is made.

Under the new system of continuous registration introduced from 1 january 2004, the registered keeper will remain responsible for re-licensing or declaration of SORN until DVLA has been formally notified of the vehicle s transfer, destruction, or export or theft. Enforcing this legislation is vital to the scheme s succes.

When

[williamjohn323]

This is what dvla say

The Agency actions may appear harsh, but the legal position is clear. It may help put matters into context if I explain the background to continuous registration (CR). DVLA is charged with maintaining and improving the accuaracy and integrity of the vehicle register on behalf of the secretary of state.It has been a legal requirement since January 1998 for the registered keeper of a vehicle to ensure that at all times,it is either licensed or a statutory off road notification (SORN) declaration is made.

Under the new system of continuous registration introduced from 1 january 2004, the registered keeper will remain responsible for re-licensing or declaration of SORN until DVLA has been formally notified of the vehicle s transfer, destruction, or export or theft. Enforcing this legislation is vital to the scheme s succes.

When a vehicle is disposed of,the registered keeper is required by law to notify the agency in order that the vehicle record can be amended accordingly . Notification is achieved by the completion of the relevant portion of the vehicle registration document (V5C) , which must be sent to the agencys centre of operations in swansea for the vehicle record to be updated. this responsibility cannot be passed on to a third party.

When undertaken correctly, this process reduces the opportunity for the new keeper to drop out of the system and evade their responsibility for VED and other traffic-related

[advisee]

Got fined for not declaring sorn, sent them a photocopy of 1st class recorded delivery slip which the date of the stamp was plain of sending a envelope to DVLA ,in the envelope was the registration document to scrap the vehicle three months ago.

 

They replied saying they want to se the confirmation document from them saying that it has been scraped, which I did not received off them they still want me to pay £80 or go to court, Can anybody help with this Thanks

 

Go to court - you have more than enough proof that it was sent.

[DrNO]

I am going though similar situation. I sold a car to my cousin in May with 2 months tax,and got a fine in Nov. During this time he had sent a SORN form, and applied for documents but had no reply. Ringing Swansea it appears (READING BETWEEN LINES )that any error in the registration doc sent and they bin it and wait for you to chase it My cousin was not registered the new keeper, so the SORN, and requesting new documents form he sent to them was also binned.. Therefore no one knew that there was a problem until the fine arrived.I had photocopy of V5 and realised it was not signed, however Continuous registration Centre refused the signed copy and also photocopies of my cousins documents as evidence .It seems that once an problem occurs nothing will cause them to revoke the fine .This seems like a cash cow situation for the exchequor. I have now payed up but I have now written to my MP

[JonCris]

I know that the DVLA have often received the documents they claim they haven't. They just won't take the time to look for it as it costs time & money - much easier to claim they haven't got it & make the consumer pay for their mistake - if anyone is interested this has been happening since the DVLA's inception over 3 decades ago

 

If you feel your banging your head against a brick I strongly suggest that you SAR them asap - such action tends to concentrate their minds a little & they might just 'find' the missing docs