Cartoon from "The Times". Seems to sum up the attitude perfectly !! (click on image to see larger)

Wally, Have you already had some form of "out of court" settlement ? If so, such would have been just that. "Out of court", normally agreed to as being "Without prejudice", without liability, and declared as an end to matters as such. And so no, they can't try and claim them back. Check the terms of any agreement, and if unsure, post them up here. regards PM

Agreed Jon. ..... But it does make you wonder what bl**dy point there even is for the existence of the OFT in the first place; when the the "Office of Fair Trade" cannot rule on what actually is "Fair Trade" ?? PM

CONSUMER LEGISLATION ISN'T WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON !! IF IT CANNOT BE ENFORCED, IT IS POINTLESS. THE OFT IS REDUNDANT PARLIAMENT IS POWERLESS AND REDUNDANT. THE BANKS ARE RUNNING THE COUNTRY !!! WELCOME TO THE ORWELIAN FUTURE. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Lets face it, the Government are probably damned either way upon the final outcome of this; If the HOL find in favour of the Banks, then the voting public will be outraged that the Banks have received so much taxpayer money, and be allowed to continue to rip the public off. The government will be blamed for this, and it will also be taken as a sign of political weakness. Not good in the run up to a General Election. If on the other hand, the HOL find against the Banks, then the banks will have to find masses of money to pay people back, weakening them further and perhaps even require they turn to the government/taxpayer for even more handouts . This will not bode well for the economy, or for Government relationships with the Banks, and (if more fiscal support required for banks) also voters happiness with the way banks have been bailed out yet again, with yet more taxpayers money, in order to pay them back their own money. Again, not good in the run up to a General Election. So, I imagine the Government are hoping resolution of this issue will come after the next General Election, so that either: If another party wins, then the next government will get have to deal with the implications of the ruling. or If they do get back into office, the ruling will arrive at the beginning of a new term, rather than near the end of one, and so near to a General Election.

Hi, Alun. Just stumbled across your thread here, and shocked (but not surprised) by Lloyds behaviour and attitude. It is very good advice to not actually call or engage with them over the phone, keep everything in writing, and keep copies. Also send everything by recorded delivery. Perhaps send them a letter along the lines of this too. See here: http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/590-letter-used-when-a-dca-threatens-a-doorstep-visit- With regards bailiffs, they cannot just simply send people around, there is a whole process they need to go through, which requires their first issuing a court claim, getting a judgement, and then finally a warrant. This process is lengthy for them, and it can also be challenged by you along the way. Even then, they especially cannot just send anyone around if they know you are vulnerable or ill. See this link regards OFT guidelines for Debt Collectors. http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/527-oft-debt-collection-guidance Note especially 2.12 b. and c From the OFT guidelines: Debt collection visits 2.11 Those visiting debtors must not act in an unclear or threatening manner. 2.12 Examples of unfair practices are: a. not making the purpose of any proposed visit clear, for example, merely stating that collectors or field agents will call is not sufficient b. visiting a debtor when it is known they are vulnerable, for example, when a doctor's certificate has been provided stating that the debtor is ill c. continuing with a visit when it becomes apparent that the debtor is distressed or otherwise vulnerable, for example, it becomes apparent that the debtor has mental health problems d. entering a property uninvited e. not leaving a property when asked to f. visiting or threatening to visit debtors without prior agreement when the debt is deadlocked or disputed1 g. not giving adequate notice of the time and date of a visit 2 h visiting debtors, unless requested, at inappropriate locations such as work or hospital. So, perhaps you should ask your doctor for a note that confirms your are ill and vulnerable, and then send a copy (keep original) to them (by recorded delivery). Then they are on formal written notice of your health situation. If they do still visit, then they are breaking several guidelines and also the law. If someone were still to attempt to visit: Tell them to leave as you have nothing to discuss and all communication must be in writing. Tell them you will call the police if they don't leave immediately. Remain calm and polite at all times. Walk away from the door so the visitor cannot try and talk to you. If they don't leave, call the police to report that you are being harassed and the visitor refuses to leave. ALSO: When you ran up the original debts as a student, was any of it as a result of any penalty charges on your account for returned items, bounced cheques etc ? If so, you could actually find that some or all of the supposed debt they are claiming you owe could be written off or even actually reclaimed. Do you have your old statements, have you looked through them to see if there are any charges? Do not think or be put off by any thoughts regards the age of the charges, even if they were incurred over 8 years ago, they are still reclaimable. Turn the tables, and start the process of claiming this money back as soon as you can, and then you can declare the debt they are claiming from you as being in dispute. Start the process, and then you can send the following letter: See here: http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/580-letter-when-bankdca-attempt-to-collect-on-penalty-charge-situation Also, in your original post, you mention that you only receive around £85 per week ? This seems pretty meagre. Have you inquired about eligibility for Disability Living Allowance (DLA) ? Depending on your particular illness and circumstances (eg: if you live alone, are living with relatives etc) you could be eligible for additional financial help in the form of DLA. Also in some cases they can even back-date payments, and this could be a very considerable sum. Speak to your local benefits office about this, and get your application underway. Best regards PM

Thanks mate. Totally agree. The limitations act was designed to prevent someone who was already aware of their right of action from "sitting" on a claim, in order to perhaps gain some advantage; Perhaps in order to acquire extra interest, or maybe to gain an advantage through the diminished ability of the defendant to bring a reasonable defence. It was NOT designed in order to allow someone who has taken money they were not entitled to from avoiding their liabilities, through simply hiding such facts from a claimant for more than 6 years !! PM

I was getting hassled from a DCA regards a disputed account when I sent my above letter. They not only immediately stopped... but they actually DID send me a copy of their dispute procedures !! Obviously a bit panicked about any threat at all to their CCA licence that may arise by their not complying with procedures properly. PM

You still getting hassle ? Did you post a letter to them regards ceasing doing so ? PM

Any update Phatram ? Did you seek guidance from your solicitor and/or send the letter ? Do the trick ? What's current status of your issues ? PM

One last question: Why Did You Start Every Word With A Capital Letter In Your Post ?

Hi Charley, Notice you've been a member for a little while, and made a fair amount of posts. Have you made other claims before? Where they bank Charges claims, perhaps against a personal account or where they something other, eg. against a credit card or utility company etc? The process of claiming Business account charges has currently hit a bit of a wall, due to the fact that business accounts are not covered by consumer legislation, and so always relied upon common law. The current action being brought by the OFT regards charges has already ruled that such charges are not subject to being contested under common law, and therefore can only be challenged under consumer legislation. This presently leaves business claimants without a cause of action. There has been some talk and behind the scenes discussions about other possible ways for business account claimants to challenge these charges, but such approaches need to be kept under wraps, examined and firmed up before release and recommendation to all business claimants. So in short, any action a business claimant may currently have or bring under previous common law contentions is fairly likely to fail, but there is some possible new hope at some point in the future. Regards the age of the charges; There are ways around that, which have been pretty successful for many. This is by citing section 32 of the Statute of limitations. I suggest you read the Statute of Limitations Act, and also do a search of CAG for threads and posts on such subject. Regards being copies; Where did you get such, from your bank? If they are copies of originals and can be verified, then that should present no problem. Regards not having T&C's; This is quite common, and many others on CAG have managed to get hold of some from other members. If you post an appeal for some (either on this thread or your own), or search in the CAG library, you may find what you need. Which Bank was it? Do you have a thread regards such claim started, if so can you post a link to it here. Best regards PM

Hi all, A new thread regards an issue I am dealing with on behalf of an elderly neighbour. Basically, she moved into a newly converted property in 1995. The flat was contained within a house that had recently been converted into 3 separate flats. She started to receive bills from Thames Water almost immediately, and simply paid them in good faith. A few months back, we discovered that she had in fact been billed and was paying water charges for the whole building !! And this had been going on since she moved in. So, we have initially spoken to them to resolve this, and they have given some refunds, based on their own assessments for the last 6 years (2004 - present). However (apart from the fact that I still dispute their own assessments), we have not been given anything further back, and TW contend we can't go back any further than 6 years. I obviously strongly contend that stance, as her payments were made in good faith, whilst acting under a mistake, bourne of their own assessments and errors. So, I am now applying to get everything back for her, right back to 1995, citing section 32 of SOL. AND.... I also plan to consider applying for restitutionary interest, based upon the contention that they have had the benefit of her money all this time. Such contentions will be based upon the laws of restitution, and also case law such as HMRC v Sempra Metals. Should be an interesting battle. Watch this space. PM

Morgan, I am no expert here, however your case is interesting as I have seen other similar cases on CAG, and so I will try to speak to them, to get some advice, and also ask them to look at your case. I suggest you start your own thread on this, and post a link to it in here. Regards PM

Hi Morgan, I've taken a quick look at your agreement. As It's over the £25k sum it is not covered by CCA74. HOWEVER: 1/ Was the loan for repaying several other debts/ loans ? 2/ If so, how was the loan paid? Was it paid to you in one lump sum into an account or by cheque etc.... or were several other loans/ overdrafts/ credit cards/ etc repaid using the funds? And if so, how were they paid. If it was the case that several other debts were paid off using the loan, and they were paid directly by the lender to the other lenders, you may have a case for claiming that the loan was deliberately constructed in such a way as to avoid regulation under CCA, and I do believe this would be wrong and unlawful. 3/ The commission. You say there was commission involved. It does not appear on agreement? Were you informed formally of this before the loan ? You may have a case for claiming if proper formalities were not abided by. You should do a search of the forums (use he search button at top) for secret commissions. Best regards PM PS: Anyone else wish to comment ?

Morgan, How much was the loan for (before interest) ? Do you know how much the commission was roughly ? Was there PPI or insurance included as part of the loan ? Was the loan a consolidation loan (ie: amalgamating previous debts or loans into one). If your answer is yes to any of the above, then it may have been improperly executed (and so unenforceable). and/or the actual loan amount may have been less than £25k, and so making it subject to the CCA74 (ie: regulated). Do you have a copy of the agreement ? Can you post up a copy ( use photobucket, and remove any personal details). Or can you post up as much infor as poss?. No harm asking for the agreement, that is your right. Not sure where you stand regards withholding payments whilst waiting for it? Think you are entitled to do so, until they can prove the debt, and then come to an agreement to catch up afterwards should they actually produce one. Others may advise also. Best regards PM

Hi all, I got a PM from Determindator about this. Thanks D, and best wishes to you (and all). I too have won claims in the past and was certainly one who remembered to donate, and I do have other claims in the offing which once sorted will certainly entail further donations to our dear CAG from myself. However, the whole hiatus in settlements due to the OFT fiasco has indeed caused a drying up in donations whilst an outcome is pending, and I'm sure this has created lean times for CAG, so like many here I have often tried racking my brains for ideas and suggestions that may help raise funds to keep things ticking over in meantime. I have just done a quick google for fundraising ideas, and this has come up with some ideas. Great Charity Fundraising Ideas and Community Fundraising Ideas - charity fundraisers Lots of ideas to consider maybe ? Anyhow. If a calendar really is a serious thought, then here is my tuppence worth: Although in such circumstances I would actually be very happy to donate my own time and skill, there are always unavoidable additional costs involved in doing a photoshoot (studio space, lighting, digital operator etc). It would also be a logistical nightmare trying to get peeps from all round the country to convene at one space at one time etc. So, from both an organisational and a cost point of view it would be difficult and costly to do, and so far simpler and more cost effective to just have individuals submit their own photo's and images. Either way though.... although it maybe fun to do, from a fundraising point of view I'm personally not actually convinced a calendar would cut it as a serious fundraiser; Demand? Who would buy such a calendar, other than other CAG members? After all who would want a calendar of a bunch of CAG members on their wall, when they could instead have one of their football team, TV prog, favourite Pin-ups, nice Scenic views etc etc ? There is also the print and production costs to bear in mind, and these may outweigh any profit especially in the relatively small numbers produced. Plus there is also the fact that if these calendars aren't sold over next couple of months, then they will just instantly go out of date... after all, who is going to buy a calendar in Feb ? Consider also, that many CAG members are under severe financial pressures, and so unlikely to buy anything not a necessity. So..... how about instead some sort of product that can be bought at discount by CAG members, and then also be sold on for their own benefit ? This way CAG get funds, and hard up members get a means to maybe help themselves. Everyone benefits. Perhaps also keep such products on a financial theme? A couple of my own quick top of my head suggestions could be a wallet, a purse or pocket calculator, maybe even with a CAG logo on ? Others of you may have better ideas ? PM

Hi all, I got a PM from Determindator about this. Thanks D, and best wishes to you (and all). I too have won claims in the past and was certainly one who remembered to donate, and I do have other claims in the offing which once sorted will certainly entail further donations to our dear CAG from myself. However, the whole hiatus in settlements due to the OFT fiasco has indeed caused a drying up in donations whilst an outcome is pending, and I'm sure this has created lean times for CAG, so like many here I have often tried racking my brains for ideas and suggestions that may help raise funds to keep things ticking over in meantime. I have just done a quick google for fundraising ideas, and this has come up with some ideas. Great Charity Fundraising Ideas and Community Fundraising Ideas - charity fundraisers Lots of ideas to consider maybe ? Anyhow. If a calendar really is a serious thought, then here is my tuppence worth: Although in such circumstances I would actually be very happy to donate my own time and skill, there are always unavoidable additional costs involved in doing a photoshoot (studio space, lighting, digital operator etc). It would also be a logistical nightmare trying to get peeps from all round the country to convene at one space at one time etc. So, from both an organisational and a cost point of view it would be difficult and costly to do, and so far simpler and more cost effective to just have individuals submit their own photo's and images. Either way though.... although it maybe fun to do, from a fundraising point of view I'm personally not actually convinced a calendar would cut it as a serious fundraiser; Demand? Who would buy such a calendar, other than other CAG members? After all who would want a calendar of a bunch of CAG members on their wall, when they could instead have one of their football team, TV prog, favourite Pin-ups, nice Scenic views etc etc ? There is also the print and production costs to bear in mind, and these may outweigh any profit especially in the relatively small numbers produced. Plus there is also the fact that if these calendars aren't sold over next couple of months, then they will just instantly go out of date... after all, who is going to buy a calendar in Feb ? Consider also, that many CAG members are under severe financial pressures, and so unlikely to buy anything not a necessity. So..... how about instead some sort of product that can be bought at discount by CAG members, and then also be sold on for their own benefit ? This way CAG get funds, and hard up members get a means to maybe help themselves. Everyone benefits. Perhaps also keep such products on a financial theme? A couple of my own quick top of my head suggestions could be a wallet, a purse or pocket calculator, maybe even with a CAG logo on ? Others of you may have better ideas ? PM

Phatram, As the account is in dispute, and the Co-Op are aware of such, then they should not have even involved Fredrickson, nor shared any of your personal data with them. You should perhaps seek some guidance from your solicitor, and ask them about your rights in such circumstances. I had a similar situation myself recently with regards a dispute with a utility company. I sent their debt collectors the following letter, and haven't heard anything more from them since (mind you it has only been 2 weeks, so we'll se just how effective it has actually been soon). Perhaps firstly just check with your solicitor if such a letter would be appropriate to send in your case ? (PS: With thanks to Martin3030 who helped me compose this): Dear Sir / Madam, With regards the above accounts/reference numbers; 
Your client (COMPANY NAME) have been aware since early (DATE) that these accounts were in dispute. 
 Despite clear written notification of such, your clients have shown a total disregard to both Consumer legislation and also matters under the Data Protection Act 1980 by its instructions to yourselves to further pursue collection whilst a dispute remains. 

 I now put you on written notice to the fact that this matter has now been handed over to my solicitors to deal with. Therefore, you must now immediately cease sending any further collection correspondence to myself, refrain from any further attempts at collecting any payment with regards these accounts, and also immediately cease processing my personal data in respect of any alleged arrears or debt. Should your collection activity continue following being made aware of this: 1/ I shall immediately seek directions from the Court with a view to obtaining an injunction against your company, preventing your continued harassment. 2/ I shall also file formal complaints with the FSA, the OFT and also my local Trading Standards office, with a view to urging a review of your suitability to retain your CCA74 & other regulatory licenses. 3/ All correspondence from yourselves will continue to be retained by myself, and may later be used as evidence in a future claim for damages. The FSA has recently issued stern warnings to those individuals and organisations who have initiated hostile actions (threats and secondary actions, addition of collection charges, and the sharing, passing or processing of personal data with third parties) whilst customers are seeking to enforce their Statutory and legal rights, and I strongly suggest you familiarise yourselves to these warnings. Since this is a formal complaint you are also required to send me a copy of your complaints procedure, as per guidance from the Financial Services Association, and also the Financial Ombudsman, who act on their behalf. I look forward to receiving a copy of these, together with your written undertaking that your own attempts at further recoveries will now be suspended. Yours Faithfully YOUR NAME (always best to avoid actually signing such documents, in order to avoid any possibility that they may "lift" your signature).

Hi minimac, Just a few suggestions. 1/ Was the fire at work or a company/ public building ? If so, your dad may be eligible for compensation? The company etc would have insurance for this. 2/ Does your dads injuries make life difficult for him still, or require that he gets help form others ? If so, he may be eligible for DLA (Disability Living Allowance). This is a non means tested (ie: income is irrelevant) benefit to help him or anyone helping him. Speak to your local Social security office or look into this online. You Mum may also be able to backdate a claim for financial help for the period she was looking after him. Again speak to DSS. There are also normally lots of local (free) independent organisations that can help sort such things out. Look in phone book or online. 3/ Did any of the cards loans etc have insurance ? If so then he should not have had to pay whilst off work. You may need to check if there was any cut off period for claiming. Just some ideas ?

THANKS, I have temporarily removed the POC and anything which may possibly identify me from this thread. PM

WOW !! Thanks guys.... you've all been so busy in my absence..... I really wasn't expecting so many replies ! Thanks !! PM

Hi all, Okay, I filed my claim against Scot Power last week, and should be receiving confirmation of service anytime soon. In the meantime I have received 2 more nasty letters from their hounds threatening court action. The last was headed "final notice". Any suggestions on how to deal with these ? ie: If I've already filed a claim regards such sums, can they also file a claim ? My belief is that if the sums are already a matter of litigation on my behalf, then surely they cannot also file a claim? Should I: 1/ Inform their DCA that the sums are already a matter of a court action, so they cannot file a claim regards the same sums (if so, should I do this by phone or by writing)? 2/ Wait, for them to file a claim, and then submit a defence citing my own claim ( I should also have a claim reference number by then)? 3/ Wait for them to file a claim, and then apply to the court to have both matters heard at the same time (if so, what is procedure, is it a standard form, perhaps an N244) ? 4/ Do nothing, then hope that my own claim gets allocated first, and then at such time bring up the matter of their own claim, citing their further behaviour at filing a claim whilst the matter was already a subject of litigation as being retaliatory/unlawful ? Any suggestions anyone ?? Please !! PM

Sorry.... I edited my post after you had posted yours, after having a change of heart (after actually reading the article properly) So not sure if you still wish to maintain the same opinion? ie: Feel free to edit your post in response to my own edit. PM

Here is the article: When is a class action not a class action? When it’s a collective redress scheme or a representative action or basically anything that does not sound like loony American litigation. Whatever you call it, however, the idea of bringing a case on behalf of a group of consumers who have to opt out of the action — rather than opt in, as now — is slowly gaining ground. But with the business community united in opposition, slow is the operative word. Last month the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) accepted that “there may be circumstances where cases could be brought more efficiently on a collective basis”, but then promptly rejected the idea of introducing a generic procedure applicable to all cases. Responding to recommendations from the Civil Justice Council (CJC), the MoJ said that each government department should assess whether there is evidence of need for a collective redress procedure sector by sector, with the help of a policy framework that the MoJ is developing. If so, the department will decide how it will work. “It may be the Government’s way of kicking the CJC proposal into the long grass,” says John Meltzer, head of the product liability network at Lovells, the City firm. “Unless the ministry is really prepared to drive the process of reform, I doubt other departments are going to have the appetite to do it.” The council wants only to add opt-out actions to the options for bringing group claims — not replace them — but it is a sign of the controversy they provoke that it counts as progress that the ministry did not shelve the idea entirely. Robert Musgrove, chief executive of the council, is pleased that the Ministry of Justice accepted most of its recommendations, saying they “should herald considerable improvements in access to justice”. These were based on research that found “overwhelming evidence” that the system is preventing meritorious consumer claims from being pursued. Getting the balance right between developing more effective procedures for people to bring meritorious claims, protecting defendants from non-meritorious claims and ensuring that court proceedings are only ever utilised where there are no more efficient or timely routes to redress, has been challenging,” he says. Ingrid Gubbay, a co-author of the CJC’s report and consultant in the London office of Hausfeld, the US class action firm, is less diplomatic. She suggests that the Government is worried in part about finding itself on the receiving end of class actions even though, in reality, such cases would be tough to bring, as the Equitable Life action proves. “The sector-by-sector approach is a way of slowing down almost to a halt any possibility of bringing in any effective procedure,” she says, “and does raise a credibility question as to how far the response may be selfserving.” With litigation seen as the last resort, the ministry highlighted regulatory action as potentially “a more cost-effective way of dealing with cases involving a large number of small claims”, which Meltzer says is in keeping with the European approach. It also sounds like a veiled reference to the case Which? brought against JJB Sports over football shirt pricefixing, in which consumers who bought offending strips could claim £20. But Gubbay, who previously worked at Which? and launched the action, says that requires consumer groups, charities and trade unions — as well as regulators — to make private enforcement a priority. Few seem willing or able to do this. The council has tried to make its proposals look as little like US class actions as possible, despite research indicating that the reality is not as loony as the myths anyway, in an effort to reassure the business community that they would not lead to a mass of speculative claims. To the extent that opt-out is a feature of US class actions, then such cases are US-style, but equally they are Canadian and Australian-style. What makes US class actions scary are contingency fees, punitive damages and no loser-pays rule; and we are a long way from that. It is also often forgotten that class actions help defendants, too, by consolidating all claimants into one action and offering finality. Not everyone thinks they will now rest quietly in the long grass. The European Commission is looking closely at collective redress, while an as-yet unpublished report commissioned by the Government Equalities Office calls for opt-out actions to be tried out in employment tribunals to deal with the thousands of group discrimination and equal pay cases clogging up the system. Tim Strong, a partner at Barlow Lyde & Gilbert, the City firm, believes the present climate provides fertile ground for government departments to get on and examine whether they need such actions. “Lord Justice Jackson’s costs review has focused attention on the high cost of litigation in the UK and issues of access to justice,” he says. “In addition, there are now large classes of claimants with recession-based claims against their financial advisers and others. The issue of collective actions may therefore be near the top of many government departments’ ‘to do’ lists come early 2010.”