So where do I go next? Hovering on the Ombudsman link above paints a very bad picture of that route so am I wasting my time? I hear lots of friends getting their money back without a fight and I don't understand how MBNA are taking their stance on this.

Thanks citizenB Thanks so much for the quick response. As I said I've had a battle with MBNA and in hinesight I should have gone to the Ombudsman on their first refusal but naively (having spotted lots of errors in their assessment as well as believing we had a strong case) I went back to MBNA with an appeal letter. It's been a royal waster of time (lots of time). If I open a separate thread do you think you could advise me further? Thanks again

Hi Conniff Can I just ask you to clarify your comment about self employment "The very first question says it was fraudulently sold, ie self employed." We've had a hell of a time with MNBA (really doggy tactics). My wife was self-employed and they have said, in writing, that they covered self employed people. I've been told elsewhere that ppi was not suitable for the self-employed so I'm getting a bit confused. Thanks

Hi All I promised to defend this and report back. I am happy to report I got the whole thing squashed! As it took up my whole working day yesterday due to the court being miles from where I now live I'm playing catch up with work and I'm self employed so I need to get some stuff done pronto. However, I will write up a full report of what happened, what was discussed and the result in the next day or two. If anyone has specific questions that are urgent due to pending case, post them and I'll try to help straight away.

Thanks for your input. I agree the fraud is a separate issue and only mention it to highlight the Councils negligence. They told me they have nothing on file from me about the allegation. I sent it recorded and they have also responded to emails containing the information but not commented on it. How can they say they don't know? Its bull! With regard to making payments while they consider the exemption again after several emails they have failed to even recognise my request until we got to the stage of court action. Negligent! In my experience they are lazy and they lie period.

Sorry Conniff scratch the reason for being summoned. I get it now it could be the wrong person named and therefore defence would be "it's not my liability" Sorry, having meltdown moment as very stressed with this and other stuff at moment. The rest of my post still stands though. And I understand it's a room not a court but that there is a judge who has the power to grant or deny the liability order. I would still argue that the Council have not assessed my liability and that's their error as I have provided the information required to do so. At the very least I would argue that even if they subsequently decide to reject my application they should cancel the added court costs as we are only here due to their negligence.

Hi Very good point! It's a closed shop then with the Council doing just what ever they like. I've said it before but I'm amazed that in this country such a system exists with no right of reply. It has to be against your human rights or some other higher law. I don't mean the Councils right to obtain a liability order as such but more that they can go from yes you are liable, to bailliff action, without any consideration to other circumstances and your right to represent your situation. Conniff I see what you are saying but I'm confussed I guess as to why I'm summoned if there is no reason for me to be there and how the council can go to bailiff action so easily. Yes if tax is due I am liable but they have not yest assessed if the tax is due as they are still processing my request for exemption. And why did they not go for liability order with my friend? Is this a new tactic? He was liable, it was his debt and he owed way more than me. Could it be that the Council in his area just made a mistake and took the wrong legal route then? Also I thought you said that the majority of the time the council rep will remove you from the list if you turn up requesting to speak to the judge?

Hi Thanks for the reply. The part I am having most difficulty with is if the system is as described there is no point in the time line in which I get to put a defence. I thought in the UK it was an inherent right to put forward a defence. With regard to bailiffs I'm not new to dealing with them. I record everything which is why when I asked the Council for proof that the bailliff (as claimed) made two visits to my home, they close the case without reply. I know bailliffs lie and I have recorded calls of their horrid methods so I'm well equiped for their visit. My family is classed vulnerable so they should not be used anyway. I'm still confused how the Council can go from invoice to reminders to liability to bailliff without any right of reply. It's nuts!!!! Any way thank you I will follow your advice to send recorded copies. I did send one as far back as May 2012 but guess what? No reply. I made an official complaint, they responded to initial complaint but they have a knack of misiisng out the most problematic parts of a complaint in their response. So I escalated to stage 2 and guess what? No response!! It's like they just hope to wear you out and hope you'll just go away.

Hi id6052 Thank you for jumping in. 1. I guess it's much easier if no one turns uo though? 2. So I get no chance at all to defend my position? 3. There is no defence unless it is not my bill? I thought in any legal process you had the right to make a defence? I guess my main position on this is that the Council have for over 9 months cherry picked what they decide to respond to when I contact them and it's both unfair and negligent. While you point out that the send reminders, I have responded to their reminders and they have ignored my emails. How is this fair or legal? On the subject of fraud the tenant did not pay the rent and I believe he was working too.The problem with chasing him is I don't know where he lives. With regard to the Council Tax liability, initially though they were aware the property was empty the Council applied the full years cost to the account. They even went all the way to obtaining a liability order. Only after bogus bailliff visits (they claimed to have visited but did not) and several complaints via phone and email did the Council apply the class c and cancel the bill. It really shouldn't be such a struggle to get them to perform their standard duty. I was not aware that you could get more than six months until someone told me. I requested consideration for class A. No reply. I asked again. No reply. As there is no definition in law for "major work" the Council have some latitude in what they can accept. In my situation the property was severley damaged including flooded floor, shower wall falling down, carpets wrecked, oven damaged, fridge freezer stolen, both toilets damaged. radiators ripped off the wall, heating system control stollen, switched smashed, lighting damaged, entry door damaged and on and on and on. As I understand it none of these in isolation constitute major work but together the work was major and to compound the matter couldn't be started initially due to the electricity being cut off (the tenant commited fraud with the electric supply too).I had to jump through several hoops with British Gas before they would reconnect the supply. During this whole process I was being treated for severe anxiety and depression. When you add to all the above, threats to myself and my family from the tenant (who claims to have been in prison for attempted murder), which made me fearful when having to go to the property, I think the Council could grant a class a excemption. You mention an extension to class c. I wasn't aware you could extend a class c. Thought it was fixed for 6 months? My main confuion here is regarding the legal process. You say there is effectively no defence and the Council will get their liability order. So two questions then: 1. Do you disagree with Conniff saying the Council rep will try to prevent me taking to the judge and if so why? 2. If you look at the process of law at what point do I get to defend my position? As I stated earlier a friend owed about £3,800. He paid £2,000 and the Council rejected his offer for repayment of the balance on a monthly basis. They took him to court and he was able to put his case. He won. It seems there is a different route to court that the council can take but they are choosing this liability process to avoid my chance of a defence. Any idea's how my friends situation could have been treated differently from mine? With this process there is no point in which a person can put their position to the court. I've never heard of such a bias situation. Even a statutory demand for payment has a limited time (21 days) defence period and the right to speak in court. Many thanks for your help.

Wow that's horrendous treatment!! You should have been able to claim vulnerable status I would have thought. In which case they should not have used bailiffs. Glad all is okay for you now though. I believe in fair play and I try my best to record and document everything. The Council should not be allowed in my opinion to bully people. I accept they have a job to do but they should act responsibly and with consideration for peoples individual situation. And when they mess up they should hold their hands up and admit it. As for complaining I have already raised a formal complaint (months ago) and escalated to stage 2 complaint. They dealt with stage one but no response so far for stage 2 which is another reason I am surprised they are going for court action. My understanding is that this should not happen prior to the outcome of a dispute. Any way thank you for clarifying your experience. it really helps my picture of the event. I will be going to the court and I will request that they either strike out the liability order or allow me to speak to the judge. I'll let you know the outcome. I will also pursue my formal complaint. I can't let it just be ignored it has become a point of principle for me. If Conniff is right and it only costs them £3 for a liability order yet they have added £120 to my costs then something is wrong as that is unfair (in my opinion). Conniff if you are listening ; ) you said they pay £3 and though not moral it is legal. Can you provide any further info on how it's legal? Many thanks again to you both I will be back to report on what happens. As for the miss information I have recorded evidence of, I will definitely be making another formal complaint. Ironically the recorded message you hear before speaking to an adviser at the council is very warm, friendly and assures you that if you are struggling they want to help you. Then you get through and they become pitbulls. Actually I should say out of the three calls one of them was genuinely polite but the other two (including a manager) were down right rude and gave confusing if not deliberately inaccurate information. Watch this space : )

Hi I have some previous court experience but not for Council tax. I recently beat a mortgage company and was awarded compensation. So I have a fairly good grasp of preparing and argument if I have all the facts. I see what you are saying in that if you're liable then you're liable but you can surely only be liable once any exception request has been assessed. I don't know the details of your case but in mine I requested a class a exemption which has not been granted or declined. the Council have added a two week extension to deal with the request yet are still going to court for a liability order. If my request for an exemption is declined then I am willing (but not happy) to pay. However, as I have chased the Council for a decision and they have failed to respond then I should not have to pay their court costs regardless of liability as this could have been concluded with out the need for court. So with reference to Conniff's post about the council trying to strike from the list 99% of those who attend, did they not do this in your case? You were told you couldn't see the judge?? Thanks

Hi Please don't take this the wrong way as I don't mean to be rude but your earlier advice was there is no Judge involved, "There will be no judge !" And that the decision on liability is made by the Council on behalf of the Council which just seems ludicrous. Q) who decides if I'm liable A) council employee in that hired room in the court building Yet Conniff has confirmed there is a judge and I am allowed to object. And further that the Council rep will most likely try to have me struck from the list to avoid me talking. Your positions seem to be at opposites to each other but Conniff's is more logical to me as I've been "summonsed to appear". The only thing you seem to agree on is that it's just a room in the court as opposed to an actual official court room. If you have some more concrete reasoning I'd love to hear it but if not I'm going with the advice from Conniff and I'm going to court. I've just printed off emails from June and September last year in which I ask about consideration for Class A exemption. The Council failed to respond at all to my fair request. I have others yet to print again requesting clarification of the position. Why then do you believe they will win? I at no point said I refuse to pay. I said I request consideration for class a exemption. How can they ignore you then take legal action? When I asked them yesterday on the phone why I had not received a reply to my informing them of fraud can you guess what they said? It's not their department so I should have written to the correct department. Incredible. They want £175 Council tax from me and are taking court action but are not interested in a £7500 fraudulent claim!! I don't see how you come to your conclusion that they will get the liability order. Whilst I have to agree they might, it's not up to them as you seem to be implying? The fact that they are strapped for cash is not a factor in the consideration of whether I'm liable. Cheers

Hi Conniff, Okay so best bet is just turn up then and get it returned to the council. Surely the Judge will ask me for evidence that the liability has not been assessed by the council yet. Yes I own the flat and yes if tax is due it would be me who has to pay. My position is that I requested the extra six months a class a exemption allows and the Council failed to respond to my requests. Is that enough to hold them off as they agree they have not yet assessed my situation? The Council did also give conflicting advice on the phone yesterday. They agreed to out a 2 week hold on my account but still are going to court on Monday. I can't quite get my head around that. So the way Council Tax law works then, the Council have nothing to lose by being negligent as they still have the power to take you to court even if they make mistakes and there's no come back for their actions. Wow am I really in a 1st world country : ) I agree with your earlier statement, this has to change. Is there an action group fighting this that you know of? Is there something I can do to help? I will follow your advice with regard to the contacting my MP. Just one question on that. My flat is in a different town to my residence and so different council. Do I contact my local MP or the MP for the area covering my flat? Again Conniff I'm so grateful for your advice. I wouldn't had had a clue with out you and quite probably wouldn't have gone to the court as its a 120 mile round trip. Cheers

Hi Conniff Thank you, it's now clear to me that I must attend as it's my last chance to stop the Council Action. What I need to know now is: 1. Will the judge hear a counter claim if I prepare one? 2. And if yes how should I account for my time spent on this emails/phone calls etc? 3. Is there is a a way to also claim for distress caused due to their negligent action? 4. What should I do about the recordings where the Council reps are trying to persuade me not to attend? 5. Is there any point negotiating with the Council rep at court? The Council were also made aware at the beginning of fiasco that I was being treated for severe anxiety and depression. The previous tenant had threatened myself and my family plus we were dealing with the mortgage company who went for repossession. We only saved the property from repo in the eleventh hour literally! There is more but not relevant here. Going beyond this, if this happens to people often and they are already facing bailiffs is is it not possible to take the Council to court if you have evidence they misled you or you have evidence as in my case and that they did not respond to reasonable requests for clarification of the matter prior to taking court action? Very grateful for your replies and am ready to spend the rest of my weekend preparing evidence if necessary. Please feel free to suggest as much as possible and as I said previously I will follow this through and report back for others to hopefully gain some hope. Cheers

Hi Thanks again a)council employee in that hired room in the court building. The Council told me this will mean they get a liability order, pass that to a bailiff and the bailiff then owns the debt and will chase me for it. If that's true how can a council employee make the liability decision? I thought only a judge could make such an order. b) No longer have the envelope but address on summons is from the court. c) I don't know but if a liability order is handed to bailiffs as explained by the council that's game over isn't it? There is no court hearing after that. So when in this whole process do I get to put my case forward? Thanks for guidance I'm very grateful

Hi Thanks for the reply. Okay now I'm confused. If there's no judge: a) who decides if I'm liable b) Why does the summons say that i am "summoned to appear?" c) How come my friend was able to put his case forward to a magistrate consisting of three people?

Hi Conniff Really appreciate your advice. So here's my take. I have three recorded phone calls where the Council are clearly trying to suggest I don't turn up. Mostly by implying it's just a formality and that I will "probably not get to speak." one of them said only their representative go into the court. I called a friend tonight who was summoned having paid £2000 and made a pre court offer to pay the outstanding balance in monthly payments. The Council proceeded with court action and the judge ripped them to pieces for not accepting my friends proposal. If I attend court and show the email and recorded letter proving my attempts to deal with the matter, then put forward transcripts on the Council telling me not to bother turning up as I won't get to go into the court, what do you think the judge could potentially do if I were to request compensation for my costs as I've spent considerable time on this only to be ignored by the council. I'm not talking one or two emails I'm talking many repeated requests from March last year until now. Funnily enough I am an internet marketing consultant and just before Christmas I though "Okay" as they have not replied to my last 4 emails I'm going to send one via a service I use which can record email open rates. Sure enough the email was confirmed open and they replied. Coincidence ..... ????? If you have any advice on how to nail these racketeers please let me know and I will post my results next week. Completely understand that i might not be exempt under the council tax laws as by their own admission the law is not clear on what constitutes exemption but at the very least I deserve the respect of having my request considered without the need to be dragged into court to do so. I'm ready to fight this just need your guidance. Again many thanks.

I'm desperate for some good advice on this. I've tried really hard to be reasonable with the Council but I'm astonished at their tactics including advising me not to attend court. Early last year we almost lost our rental property due to a tenant not paying rent for months. We took a serious financial hit due to the lack of rent and damage done to the property. The tenant committed housing benefit fraud as well as fraudulent electricity purchases. Yes he was claiming benefit and yet not paying the rent. The work required to get the flat in order was substantial so I requested an extenuation to the six month council tax xxxxx. I requested it but the Council did not respond. So I asked again and again no reply. They did reply to some of my emails but failed to deal with my request for an extension as well as avoiding all questions relating to the fraud. WIth probably close to 20 emails they have not once acknowledged that i have even raised the matter of fraud. It's incredible. I now have to attend court on Monday (a 120 mile round trip) and I'm angry that the only reason we are at this stage is their complete incompetence. Now after several calls and recent emails trying to get them to adjourn while discuss the matter they have informed me that the court date is a formality for them to obtain a liability order and there is no need for me to attend as I won't be able to speak in the court. They told me its not a public hearing and I won't be allowed in as only their officers are allowed in the court (or words to that effect) When I challenged them stating the summons reads "you are herby summoned to appear" they said that's just legal speak and I wouldn't bother going but it's up to you. I've been requesting the Councils co-operation since March 2012 and here we are at court on Monday all of which could have been avoided. I recorded the calls (all 3 of them today) with two advising me not to bother going. What do I do?

Hi Caro Thanks for your response. The property is a btl. The arrears are just 2 months. The mortgage company are very hard to deal with and are refusing to change our correspondence address for reasons of data protection. They have been sending our account info to the wrong address for 3 years. I've emailed their solicitor tonight asking for her clients response to principle 4 of the data protection act which states "Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date." I can't see any requirement in the act for the mortgage company to confirm our address via our household bills. I've also asked her to inform her client that Barclays and Lloyds only require filing in a form and signing it to change address details so I can't see how it could be a data protection requirement. They are just being obstructive as they have been all along. The mortgage is in my wife's name but we consider it a joint asset as we both put in 50% for the deposit and financed the refurbishment together. I understand though that the mortgage being in her name means she is the only one who can request the address change. She's done so via a signed letter through the mortgage companies solicitor. I don't understand power of attorney but if it's straight forward she will certainly do it. I had this same address problem with another mortgage company and in court the judge awarded us compensation due to the papers being incorrectly served. She concluded that as the bank had sent letters to our home address there was no excuse for serving official court papers to our previous address and further she could see no legal reason that we had to inform them in writing of our current address, merely that they were aware of it and so should have served the court papers to it. Unfortunately my request for compensation in that case was a last minute thought while actually in the court so I could only request travel costs plus child care for out of hours care of our daughter as I couldn't get back in time for school pick up. This time I want to be more fully prepared. I'd like to claim the maximum amount possible to hopefully send a message the banks can't keep bullying people and hiding behind "it's our policy" as the standard answer to every question they don't have a real answer for. I'm prepared to have all our calls transcribed if necessary. I've already spent days communicating with this company including building a chronological file on the failure of their admin system and the unfair treatment we have suffered. Any info on the power of attorney route, data protection position and other advice is most appreciated. Thanks again

Thank you I look forward to hearing your legal man's view very much I knew you could legally record in the UK but I didn't realise it was admissible as evidence in court. That's very interesting. I mentioned it more to illustrate the banks bias that it's fine for them to record but not us. To be honest after almost 2 years of this I'm sick of the way they treat us and I'm feeling morally obligated to make a stand.

Oh I forgot one of the reasons they gave today for not responding to our complaint at the current address is that they can not send any correspondence with account information on it to an un confirmed address. When I asked how then I have a letter dated 27th of November addressed to my wife (at our current address) with the account number at the top they said their copy didn't have the account number on it. Figure that one out if you can!!

Hi Conniff Thank's for the reply. You are a man (or lady) after my own heart!! After the stress of dealing with 5 mortgage accounts almost put me in hospital in 2011, mainly due to the way the banks treat us (we might as well be common criminals), I began recording almost all calls. It has saved us many times and several months ago we invested in a new cordless phone purely due to it's high quality speaker function. I now use this to record all calls to the banks. Ironically I had one guy refuse to carry on the call when I told him it was recorded!! Huh don't they record them and expect us to accept this???? So as well as many rude calls we also have blatant lies recorded. On one day we were failed during the security questions and told we had to call back.On the second call we were informed that the note said we gave the wrong address but in actual fact we had been failed on being unable to answer the interest rate the account was on. We had informed the rep prior to him initially asking the question that we were not receiving their correspondence due to the address issue but he insisted in asking the very question we couldn't answer. Then went on to obviously make incorrect notes. Both calls were recorded so we have evidence that their admin is suspect. I could go on with so many examples of very poor service. Any way since posting I have googled what other banks require for change of address and find that Lloyds and Barclays require only that you submit their form giving the new address with your signature. So surely if that's all they need then the mortgage company must me wrong claiming that data protection laws require them to see a household bill? I think I will email their solicitor and request their official response to the fact that we are challenging the accuracy of their data. According to this http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/information_standards/principle_4.aspx (near bottom of page "What happens when individuals challenge the accuracy of information held about them?") if the data is challenged they must delete or amend it unless they have good reason not to. I do not see what reason they have not to comply. Would you agree? The other issue we have is that the clerk at the court has told me I can not represent my wife in court. We can't afford a solicitor and my wife can not attend. I can't go in to the whys on an open forum but she cant go to court. We had a similar situation with another lender and I attended the court (and won) without any one questioning my right to represent my wife. Is there any legal path we can take so my wife can authorise me to speak on her behalf? Thanks again

In Brief We have a repossession case which in less than 2 weeks. The bank and their solicitors know where we live as the bank have written to us at our current address. But they refuse to send any of the legal documents to us as they have our old address listed on their system. They are hiding behind the data protection law arguing that they have not seen an original bill for our current address. The Details My wife and I have a small portfolio of properties but having made a poor judgement call just before the crash (or pure bad luck), we have struggled for the past few years. Other family matters have compounded our financial hardship but it's not relevant for me to expand on this here. We are now in a repossession situation with Mortgage Express and they are sending all correspondence to our old address. We twice, quite some time ago sent them our new address along with original bills which is the proof they require as per their policy. Our bills were never returned and they did not correct their records. They claim they never received them. Consequently they are now corresponding and sending legal documents containing our sensitive financial matters to the wrong address. They refuse to change our address on their system unless we once again send them an original proof such as council tax etc or a photocopy counter signed by a solicitor. However, they have written to us at our current address to tell us that they can not write to us at our current address in response to a complaint we made against them. They claim that the data protection act requires them to see evidence of a bill in my wife's name for the property we live in and that the address on their system can not be changed without this hence their "official system" address is our previous one. At the beginning of December my wife wrote to them authorising me to speak on her behalf. The letter was sent via their company solicitor but was not put on the system as they claimed they didn't receive it (from their own solicitor who emailed me to say she had sent it via email). This was followed up on 19th of December after I still had not heard from them where upon their solicitor resent it and called them to ensure receipt. Her email (dated December 19th 2012) to me reads: * "I have spoken with our client today and forwarded the authority to them again and they confirmed they have now received it. They have advised me it could take a couple of days to process so could be the end of the week before they are able to discuss the account with you but they are dealing with it." I called today (January 3rd 2013) to be informed that I do not have authority to talk to them about my wife's mortgage. When I asked if the authorisation sent to them from my wife and via their solicitor had been added the system I was told that as I had not signed it, only my wife, they could not accept it as I had not given my consent for them to discuss my wife's mortgage with me. I'm struggling to get my head around this one as having sent a letter of authority (from the only name on the account) for me to talk to them (via their solicitor), why would they need my signature confirming that when I ring them I am authorising them to talk to me? Talk about convoluted and over the top! So it seems the court case is going ahead and we can not stopper it. They refuse to deal with our complaint (which contains 15 points) unless we again resend original documents proving we live at the address that they have already written to. Again I don't understand. Is there a data protection law that prohibits them from writing to us about our complaint against them and also prohibits their solicitor writing to us at our actual address regarding an imminent case, without them receiving a council tax reminder? They say they have a draft response to our complaint ready to send but will only do so if we adhere to their policy. My question then is where do we stand in law with a) them refusing to change our address officially even though they have written to us here and b)on the matter that they claim they can't talk to me because my wife's letter of authority didn't include my signature. We are also very concerned that our data is being sent to our old address. We are in court in less than 2 weeks so I'd appreciate any help??? Please??? Thank you in advance to all you wonderful and knowledgable people. Very grateful Happy New Year to all.

Could it be argued and carry more weight that its not as simple as "moving" home if there would be no way in which the occupier could purchase a new home due to lack of equity or lack of enough income to get another mortgage. The consequence then being made homeless? I'm now looking at this situation too as a friend has just been made aware of her ex husbands bankruptcy and is very worried about losing her home too. She has two dependants and will not be able to get another mortgage even though she is currently able to maintain her current mortgage on her own.

Oh one more think Is the liability order still legally valid if they misspell my name? This happens to me a lot with both first and forename.