Thanks for your support guys. The Mould hope you feel better soon and I look forward to hearing from you. Mjt2013 There were costs awarded but I don't know the details. I get that the judge can refuse our request for lay representation but really what harm would it have done to allow me to speak? My wife was unprepared and is not good in such situations so immediately we were put at a disadvantage. When we walked into the room my wife went to sit in the chair furthest from the judge and in a very cold voice he said "No, no you sit here." In that moment I knew we had lost! My wife is in bits and I don't know what to do to help. I've been up since 3 this morning, just can't sleep. Last night she had a massive panic attack. She has a heart murmur so it was very worrying. They don't have a clue what the ramifications of their action are! My wife is an amazing person and she doesn't deserve this. In her day to day work she saves peoples lives. I can't say more because I obviously don't want to identify her but the judge treated her like a criminal and belittled her, while asking nothing from the solicitor and treating him with respect. It's just wrong!! Just to be clear about the debt, we have never said we refuse to pay. We said we couldn't pay when Lloyds put the pressure on and it was genuine. I don't want to go into all the details again about what happened but trust me we have had a hell of a time since 2009. All we asked is to be given the documents that prove what we really owe, to check for illegal fee's or other additions. If the judge had set aside the SD Lowell could still take their claim to the small claims court which is what they should have done in the first place. As I said my wife was not ready for what happened so she was very flustered by his questions. He asked if she borrowed the sum on the SD which was just over £7,000. She said "probably it was probably about £7,000." But she said this under pressure. She couldn't have borrowed £7,000 because it was taken out in 2007 and paid until 2010. 42man with regard to the SAR are you suggesting writing to Lloyds again to request a new SAR or reminding them that they have not complied with the original request in 2012? What would we then do with that info? Unclebulgaria67 sorry for the misunderstanding, yes it was our set aside hearing. The Judge denied it and gave Lowell the right to petition. I get that we need legal advice but we can't afford it and I don't know where to start to find the right person even if we could. As stated earlier we have gone through a hell of a time since 2009. In 2010 we needed legal help, paid a solicitor £500 and didn't really get the advice we requested. They concentrated more on offering further services for more money and we couldn't proceed. I ended up on medication and in no fit state to do anything about it. When I say we are in dire straights I mean dire, we've been under sever pressure now for five years. I'm not sure how much more either of us can take before something snaps. You make a good point that we could get the same judge in which case there would be no point in even sitting down. Thanks again to everyone.

Update And It's Not Good Okay we had our hearing today and we were totally ambushed. The solicitor for the other side was already in the room talking to the judge and the judge was hostile from the outset. I thought they were supposed to be impartial but his mind was obviously made up before we arrived. He refused our request for me to address the court as my wife's lay representative. He instructed her to sit nearest him and he asked her questions obviously designed with one aim in mind. My wife was not prepared so struggled to answer anything well. He paid no attention to the OFT guidance about debt comapanies duty to establish facts before taking any action, that Lowell had failed to supply the CCA or any other paperwork. The solicitor for BW legal actually made the comment that the previous creditor "Lloyds had washed their hands of the matter and didn't want to know" with regard to providing a copy of the CCA. Could this be because it doesn't exist???? I thought we had the right to these documents. The judge showed no compassion or respect towards my wife and placed the onus on her to prove how much we had paid towards the loan. What is it about our legal system where we are expected to treat a judge with respect but they (knowing nothing about you) can treat you like you are **** on their shoe) Why does having debt which can easily result from life circumstances mean you are treated so badly in court and by creditors? We definitely did not get a "fair" hearing by a long way. If I was cynical I'd wonder about complex arrangements for financial compensation of judges. There are many internet references to illuminate and the like. Mmmm could they really exist ; ) Anyway, does anyone have advice for our next move given the judge has granted a petition? Is there any point in pursuing Lloyds for the original documentation? If it doesn't exist can they still sell the account to Lowell legally? Any help much appreciated.

Thanks silverfox1961 Okay we will certainly press on as you suggest. With regards to adding as much weight as we can to our reason to set aside, what should we focus on in court? 1. No CCA produced 2. No Default notice produced 3. We have just found a solicitor's letter (pre Lowell purchase) which shows an amount different to the SD claim. It's very slightly higher though. Should we use this even though it's higher to argue that the amount is not established? 4. The claimant solicitor did not bother to contact us once they knew they couldn't produce the CCA yet now we've had two emails after my call to them, pressing us to agree to an adjournment. 5. Any other suggestions? Thanks

Thanks unclebulgaria67 They are turning up anyway (sending their advocate), they confirmed that on the phone. They said if we send an email agreement to adjourn, that's what they will ask for and we need not attend. But I don't see what other option they have as they don't possess the CCA. Also are they just trying to avoid paying costs as we requested costs in our set aside (using the calculation as advised on this forum) so shouldn't we attend for this reason, so we can request the costs? Why would they ask us to agree the adjournment if they don't have a concern that the judge might grant the set-aside? I thought they were supposed to already have the document before taking recovery action otherwise they can't have checked the legal standing of an account they have purchased? I also thought they had to produce the required CCA within 12 days. At the end of the day they have not communicated with us about the need to adjourn until I phoned them so it's a bit late in the day to expect us to co-operate. That said I don't want to annoy the judge. Will he or she expect us to have agreed to adjourn? Oh I forgot to mention earlier, they claimed to have the notice of assignment and sent a copy. But it's just a letter from them to us saying they have become the debt owner. Isn't there a more official document required beyond a simple letter? Many thanks

Hi GF2K I said I'd get back in touch after our court hearing but I have news on developments. Rather than repeat the details here please see my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?406276-Statutory-Demand-Urgent-Advice-Request&p=4377528#post4377528 Read post 17 I will return after court to let you know what happened.

Okay we are due in court next week so I called the solicitor to ask if they had any intention of supplying the cca as required and agreed. They said they don't have it yet but they had requested it from the original creditor 5 weeks ago and that sometimes these things take time. So they asked if we would agree to adjourn. What's our next move? If we don't agree to adjourn and they ask the judge at court, do they have any chance of winning or will the judge more likely take the stance that they've had enough time to supply the cca (given they should have had it in their possession before taking this action)? Any help much appreciated. Thanks

Hi GF2k We're up a few days before you so I'll come back and let you know if I have any pointers. So far though BW have failed to provide the original agreement and other documents that they agreed to send. Anyone have any advice about the fact they haven't complied?

Hi gforce2K My wife had SD served in exactly the same way. Same date and same companies involved too. I hope you've already taken yours to the court as by my calculation the last day was the 22nd. There are a few typos in your text but I'm sure the judge will understand. I'm not legally trained (been relying on Andy's great advice too) but it looks like a good defense to me. I didn't realise they had to send a copy of the default notice etc with the SD. Did yours come without being enclosed in an envelope too? Andy, I followed the links you sent and read the excellent and very detailed article but I still couldn't see whether sending the papers without the envelope was allowed so as to bring the defendants attention to the service, obviously helping the claimant. Or if this was an error that constituted a failure of data protection. The article was extremely detailed but I'm suffering with flu at the moment so a splitting head ache and eyes that feel like they are about to leave my skull aren't helping. Are you able to clarify this position? Good luck with yours Gf2k

Thanks DX

Yes Back then they refused to update our address over the phone and sent all paperwork to the wrong address. I went to court and won with costs too : ) We've struggled with our properties since 2008 when the bubble burst (got stuck with a property were intended to sell after refurb). Just run of bad luck really with difficult tenants and void periods etc. To add insult to injury though BOI did a % increase taking our payments from just over £300 to almost £530. They kindly did the hike over two consecutive months to ease us in gently So yep we've just had to struggle on as the property is also in negative equity. Paid £170k and they currently sell for £120K. I did ask BOI some time ago if they could help by moving us to another product but they aren't interested in helping. As I said often when we call we are treated with contempt so it hardly warms the heart when the end of the month draws near but there's no way out!

Thank you so much DX The companies are: Mortgage Express (they paid the fee for adviser) Bank of Ireland (charging us for adviser or will take legal action) Birmingham Midshires - They have not sent adviser but have added interest which I'm pretty sure they they say was awarded by a court

Hold on are you saying the £40 per month that they are charging us, which they justify as a fee due to us not having an "arrangement" in place, is illegal? They have always claimed that they can charge this while there is no agreed arrangement to clear the arrears. Our problem is our finances are up and down (both self-employed) and we've had some tenants from hell (lost in excess of 15K) so it's difficult to make arrangements on 5 properties with so much volatility in our income. We have argued that we could make an agreement this month and then need to rearrange it next month, which seems pointless. Or break it which they then use against you. I think they call it a broken promise or something like that. To be fair we have missed one payment recently and haven't called the mortgage company but in our defense we are sick of being treated as though we're criminals every time we call. We normally call every month to make the normal payment plus a contribution towards the arrears and every time without fail they want to know the full history, why are you in arrears, why this, why that. They assume that we are living some kind of life of luxury on the rental income which is a joke when you're driving a 20 year old car! Okay so what about their threat to take legal action if we refuse to meet with NCI? I guess they could repossess without needing to state that as the reason. They could just say we are in arrears by x so they want the property back. If we do meet this guy what is the down side?

Okay, just had a visit by NCI man (sounds like American police series) He was very rude and very assumptive of our situation. I could do with some definitive guidance on this as I don't know exactly what our rights are. The way it's been framed is that the mortgage company have written to us giving us no choice, it's either agree to meet this guy or they will proceed with repossession of our property (we have small portfolio of rental properties). I thought that this kind of threatening tactic would be illegal but both our mortgage providers have taken this route. One of them making us pay for the "privilege" and the other stating they will pay if we meet the person but they will charge our account if we don't. Again very threatening. So we made an appointment to meet this guy from NCI and my wife called him today to tell him that it will be me who he will be meeting with on her behalf. He refused to meet me and has now sent a text stating he will only speak with my wife. Again I thought she had the right to appoint any third party to negotiate on her behalf. Any one know the deal here? thanks

Also forgot to mention that the solicitor sent the SD via a processor and it was not in an envelope. The paperwork was stapled to and empty envelope. As such the delivery guy had full access to the information. Is this not a failure to apply data protection to my wife's information?

Hi Andy, Your earlier post prompted me to check what I originally sent them and it was a SAR. The agreement to hold while they provide the original credit agreement was made in a phone call last week. Does this still count legally? Just asking because I had a verbal agreement made on the phone with another firm of solicitors to hold action while I was out of the country (different situation) a while ago and they broke the agreement and went ahead without informing me. Thank you so much for your advice.

Thanks Andy So three further questions. 1. Does it make any difference that in the SAR I specifically requested a copy of the credit agreement (bullet point list)? 2. Should I ask for one now and do I need specific wording? 3. Does the above mean my SD set aside will fail and is there anything I can do to fix the problem? Cheers

Hi Supasnooper Thanks for that you just prompted me to look at the letter I sent back in 2012 which I'd forgotten was in fact a SAR. I can't remember what they sent in reply, I think it might have been a single page from the agreement (yellow sheet) but not too sure. What I do know for sure though is it certainly wasn't what you get in a proper SAR bundle. So lets see what they send next. Can any one tell me what bearing it has on the current situation that they failed to respond correctly to the SAR? Thanks

Okay I've done the paper work to set it aside. Still concerned though that just claiming they didn't provide a copy of the agreement is a weak defense as if they do provide the paperwork either before or at court, will that mean they win and we end up with a bankruptcy order going ahead? So I'm trying to find other points of law if there are any?? For example what's the position (given that there is a time limit on them providing the info) in that they failed to respond when requested to do so last year while the debt was still with Lloyds? And I'm reading lots online about the OFT taking a dim view to companies using SD's but the only guidance I can find is that they shouldn't use this method if they don't intend going through with the bankruptcy petition. With that what's to stop them going through with making us bankrupt? It seems a bit over the top for 7k. As long as they can provide the paper work (which I find incredible that some can't) then they have nothing to lose by taking this course of action do they? There are even solicitors giving advice on their website about how to use this method. Any further advice on what to prepare for once we get to court would be very helpful. Thanks all

okay so I spoke to the solicitor for Lowell . They said they would hold any action while they arrange for the documents to be sent. I'm still filling my set aside as their loyalty is obviously not to me. The second question they asked was, once the documents are provided what would be my reason to dispute. So it seems to me that the SD is a scare tactic to force you to put all your cards on the table so they can corner you and insist on a repayment plan. Sound about right?

Hi Andy Thanks for the reply. I think it's about £7,000 and it was served on October 5th (Saturday). Yes it's Lowell via BW Legal which seems to be a theme on the forum at the moment! As we do owe the money is it worth setting the SD aside rather than just contacting the solicitor and agreeing a small monthly payment? I'm concerned about making the wrong move as well as getting on the wrong side of the judge if I make a defense that isn't valid. Is there some kind of document required for making the transfer between Lloyds and Lowells legal too?

Hi All My wife has received a SD from a solicitor acting for a collections company (originally Lloyds credit card) We did communicate with Lloyds and requested an original copy of the credit agreement but they never replied. We been away and have returned to find this SD with only a few days left to respond. I'm looking for a way to stop any further action as we are struggling due to issues with property going back several years. Long story short we have 5 properties that we rent out and had some very bad luck with a few tenants that's left us in severe debt on top of buying our last flat at the end of the property bubble in 2008 (we had intended flipping it but had to keep it). About ten years ago a friend was defending a court situation regarding a a credit card, a loan and some other minor debts. He was told by a debt management company that there was some kind of law preventing certain actions being taken against him if the action would prejudice other companies he owed money to. Does any one know if this applies to SD's? We can't deny owing the money because we obviously do but there's no way we can pay this at the moment. When I say our situation is serious we have had a debt advisor calculate that we are currently about minus £600 per month due to the property situation. And we can't sell as most are in negative equity or would just break even. Any advice on how we can avoid further action would be most appreciated even if it's that we should offer £1 per month. Thanks

Hi Can you elaborate on your comment about people with a property at risk? What do you mean by property at risk? Thanks

I have a situation that stinks of some kind of fraud but I really need help to establish the facts as the maneuvers this company have made are beyond me. A property management company are trying to repossess a flat that we are the landlords of claiming we owe unpaid fees. Very long story but in essence the builder of the development went bust sometime between 2006 and 2009 and although the properties are all complete (I think), the roads are still not complete (no surfacing) amongst other things. The builders were also the management company (under a different name I think) and went into liquidation. When the builder went bust we were advised (by someone in their own office) to stop paying the management fees as no one else was paying and no one was doing any management. Actually they had done next to no management to this point anyway and we were very unhappy paying a bill for nothing. In any case although the property is a flat it's not the normal set up in a block with shared access, it's self contained in that you enter a door on the ground floor and stairs take you to the first floor flat. The stairs are part of the flat (not shared), they are internal to the property ie carpeted etc by us. There are only two floors to this development (ground and first) and the buildings look just like houses from the external. In 2009 our mortgage company applied a cost to our account stating the management company had mad a claim for fees. We disputed this and the mortgage company reimbursed us. We then called the phone number that our mortgage company had given us for this so called management company to hear a very heavy African accent answer "hello." No company name or any hint of professionalism. Just a very rough hello! It seemed very strange and I was suspicious as the guy was extremely cagey when I asked questions. I gave him our address and said if you are legit send me the paper work re the costs. Needless to say we heard nothing so I forgot all about it. I so wish I had pursued it then (2009) because in July we received a solicitors letter claiming over 5K in unpaid fees! I spoke with the solicitor and raised several disputes. 1. It's a self contained flat (no stairs or corridors to maintain) 2. There's no direct garden to speak of (it's first floor) 3. We've had no contact since 2009 4. There are costs for lease transfers on the statements I've been sent (sounds dogey) 5. The builder went bust but somehow transferred the management of the flats to another holding company then had the contract managed by yet another company 6. The builder concerned has changed names (ltd companies) 3 times according to Companies House A solicitors letter has been sent to my tenant informing them of an intention to repossess if we do not pay the costs and it states: "We as solicitors and agents for company a on behalf of the claimant, company b hereby give notice" etc etc. In this case company b (the claimant) is in liquidation according to companies house. Are they able to make a legal action in this state? Who do I communicate with, the company, a liquidator, the solicitor? I could really do with some help from anyone who is knowledgeable in this area. I fear some elaborate phoenix type [problem] may have occurred and have already heard of repossessions on the estate. At the moment we have a ccj for over 5k and we didn't even receive a summons. Okay I accept it's probably a well used excuse, "I didn't receive the summons your honor" But honestly we didn't get any summons but we got a ccj from the court. Is it possible for a solicitor to serve the summons at the rented property address but have a ccj registered to our home address. It's the only way I can think of that we wouldn't have received the summons other than a simple postal error which happens frequently for our post code for some reason (sometimes mixed up with a street that off our road). I last spoke to the solicitor involved back in July and she agreed to hold off on any action until she had put my questions to her client including a request to view the company accounts and receipts as is our right. How is it possible to then receive a ccj without knowing about a hearing? Oh and obviously she lied but I recorded the call. I know I can't use it in court because I didn't tell her I was recording but assume I could transcribe it and use this as notes to refer to. Does anyone know if a solicitor verbally agreeing one thing then doing the opposite is in any way viewed as misconduct or contra to any type of code? Has she done anything wrong? Help please!

Thank you theoldrouge That makes perfect sense. I'll see what they have to say when that's put to them. We also discovered (purely by serving a SAR) that one of my wife's credit agreements wasn't even signed by her. They insisted that she signed it in branch and it's taken several letters persistently telling them its not her handwriting to get them to finally take it seriously. Funny thing is though they now can't pinpoint which branch the application was completed by. Convenience R Us!!

I agree it's a great letter and I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it's not always that straight forward even when you think you've lined up all the evidence After receiving details from a SAR I put together a similar letter (my wife was told she had to take the ppi to get the card). I used the actual quote from the Ombudsman's code which states the company cannot rely on their terms at the time or what a salesperson should / might have said etc etc. However, MBNA have declined my claim and my appeal. It seemed like a cut and dry case according to the rules but we are left having to go to the Ombudsman after months of fighting. Our claim was based on: 1. Self-employed 2. PPI compulsory 3. Pre existing health condition (life long) 4. letter in 2009 with a question about cancelling the ppi (not replied to) MBNA state: 1. They cover self-employed people 2. Their sales person was required to make us aware that ppi was optional 3. Medical condition doesn't significantly affect my wife's ability to work (she sometimes has to go to bed between client sessions due to pain and exhaustion) 4. The question in the letter said "if there is no benefit can we cancel the ppi" and MBNA have said they had no obligation to give advice. They never even replied to the original letter. I thought each point on it's own was a good case for miss-selling and others on this forum have given very good examples of why the self-employed element alone should suffice but MBNA have stuck to their grounds Spoken to them and asked what evidence they have that the sales person on the phone informed my wife that ppi was optional and I asked for transcripts of the calls. Their reply is there was no recording of the call and therefore no transcript. They only have have the note on the system (made by the idiot who miss-sold the ppi) stating that there was compliance. How bloody absurd is that!! I'm absolutely dumbfounded I thought we had this in the bag