No they are different. The latest figures in the DNs are more than the original amounts quoted in the PoC. btw, do you mean the amounts in the DNs by 'statement amount'? Rgds. radmm0

Welcome back andy and thanks for your response. The only 'notifications' (not DNs) were letters received from their internal buds Triton who repeatedly threatened to take us to court by instructing their lawyers if we didn't pay at least X amount per month (unfortunately these were mostly on the phone with them & Eversheds - early days of being very naive and not CAG savvy unfortunately). On the PoC there's the standard 'breach' statement regarding a DN & CCA 1974, but no mention of a 'date' on the PoC only the amount(s) that are owed and the fact that they are entitled to add interest as they wish - yeh, it's a free for all to grab their losses from the public - but don't we actually own these idiots anyway, who have announced a massive £3bn profit last week?!! - come on Mr Ombudsman sort these guys out once and for all. Very importantly, the amounts on the recent DNs are different to the amounts quoted in the original PoC, but what do you mean by 'are they correct'? Rgds. radmm0

They haven't started a 'claim' as such, but I reckon they're starting the whole money recovery process from scratch with the right documentation(s) so that we can't do the same as we did to their first claim, which effectively made the debt 'unenforceable'. Can they do that, i.e. start with a new set of DNs by giving us the same details as the previous DNs issued earlier this year without first confirming that the court case has been 'cancelled/set aside' through their solicitor? Or, as you said earlier, may be they have forgotten that there is already a claim on these accounts?! So, the claimant wouldn't have to contact us via their solicitor if they're starting the 'recovery' process from scratch, would they? Also, if they did now have the right document(s), then why didn't they just continue with the current claim? I'm really confused! I forgot to mention that each DN has a 'Customer Financial Statement & Repayment Proposal Form', but the letters/DNs don't make ANY reference to these. There's also the fact that they have sent the letters to our old address, even though we have given their solicitor the new one (in July). This makes me think they haven't been in touch with the solicitor since they have used our old address. Any help re the above would be much appreciated while we're waiting for andyorch to return. Thanks. Rgds. radmm0

So what happened to your case? Did you manage to get the N244 and amended defence in on time and get the result you wanted from it? My wife & I are in a very similar situation at the moment and have been using CAG forums for help and came across your post re completing the N244. Although your post is from 2009, your reply would be much appreciated. Rgds. radmm0

I have attached the DNs for the Loan and the O/D. See what you think. Thanks & Rgds. radmm0 NatWest-OD-DN-AA002.pdf NatWest-LN-DN-AA001.pdf

Thanks a lot for your replies CB, I'll be getting going again with this case tomorrow. In the meantime, do you think it may be worth writing to the claimant's solicitors and asking them what is going on? I have only dealt with them in writing since they raised the claim and only they have responded to our CPR31.14 requests. Nothing direct from the bank. I'll also upload the DNs for your attention. I think they may be starting the whole process from scratch, as they may have found what we have asked for. But, as you state, why would they go through the whole thing again when they have a case that is still open in the courts?! Could it be that they couldn't respond with the right information in time allowed by the CPR request, so they know that a DJ would not consider their case even though neither they nor us have cancelled the claims, thus they have initiated a new case by issuing the new DNs? Can a creditor 'issue' two separate DNs at different times for the same debt?! Thanks again for all your time and help. Rgds. radmm0

Thanks a lot CB. I just can't understand what they're up to, as they (NatWest themselves NOT their lawyers) have actually sent the letters to our old address (we moved in July and told them about our new address)! Will wait for your next post with any ideas or suggestions. Thanks again. Rgds. radmm0

Hi Andyorch We have today received 'default notices' for the bank overdraft in joint names (separate notices) and a separate one for the bank loan, which is in my name only. So, that's 3 letters in total. Just wanted to know if they're re-starting the legal process from scratch and if so can they do this if we have already proven that the debts are unenforceable since they couldn't produce the document(s) requested in their original PoC? i.e. can they take us to court twice over the same debt or would they somehow use the same case(s) raised in July 2011 to pursue us? Just came across the following in another post on CAG: 'Just been looking at Henderson.....'Henderson -v- Henderson – 1843 – Sir James Wigram VC – Litigation Practice The court set down the principles to be applied in abuse of process cases, where a matter was raised again which should have been dealt with in earlier proceedings. Sir James Wigram VC said: “ Court requires the parties to that litigation to bring forward their whole case, and will not (except under special circumstances) permit the same parties to open the same subject of litigation in respect of matter which might have been brought forward as part of the subject in contest, but which was not brought forward, only because they have, from negligence, inadvertence, or even accident, omitted part of their case.' Would this apply to our case? Any advice/help would be much appreciated. Thanks. Rgds. radmm0

We requested the transfer when sending each AoS back by including a letter informing the courts of our new address, asking for the transfer and informing them of our inability to lodge our defense until the claimant presents us with the document(s) we had requested. Isn't the fact that the claimant has failed to produce the document(s) to back their PoC make the court claim invalid/stayed by default, even if the claimant wanted to take action and ask for a default judgement? I reckon some of the admin staff in these courts don't really understand/follow the correct procedures and get themselves in a state, hence why my wife's case is still with court 'A' even though they have sent us a letter confirming its transfer to our local court 'C'! From what you have stated in the previous post it is obvious that NO transfer should be initiated until a defense has been lodged. So, the admin in court 'A' is breaking their own rules and procedures, since my case has definitely been transferred to another court (local court 'B'). But, they have managed to completely screw-up my wife's case by sending us a confirmation of transfer letter, but then not actioning the transfer! What would you recommend is the best course of action now - for both of us? Should we make ANY contact with the claimant's solicitors about any of the above? Rgds. radmm0

Thanks again for your quick responses. Court 'B' (where my case has been transferred and confirmed by telephone) didn't mention anything about the case being 'stayed' or having heard anything from the claimant, just that it is not going anywhere. Does this effectively mean it has been 'stayed' by default after a certain time? If not 'stayed', then do I have a good case for applying for a Strike Out (with reference to my earlier posts today)? My wife's case is very similar, only that the original court 'A' seem to be holding on to her case, even though we requested a transfer to a local court and we have had a confirmation letter from court 'A' stating that the case has been transferred to court 'C' in July - but, of course we know now that it hasn't. So, as I stated in my previous reply, does this not effectively stop court 'A' in taking any default decisions/judgements on the case due to their errors and the claimant's letter to us stating that they won't be taking any further action until they provide us with the document(s) we requested using CPR 31.14? Also, aren't there other rules/laws in play now, since the claimant has failed to provide the evidence requested using CPR 31.14 in the time allowed? Don't we have every right to ask both courts to 'strike out' the cases? Surely judges/courts aren't that stupid to waste their and our time & money in entering a default judgement in my wife's case - are they?! Rgds. radmm0

We made a CPR 31.14 for each claim in early July (one is in my name and the other in my wife's name). The claimant's solicitor replied in writing and stated that until they receive the document(s) we have requested from their client, they will not take any further action - that was in late July! So, would a judge still be able to make a 'default' judgement against a defendant with this assertion from the claimant's solicitors in writing to both of us - we have received separate letters of course. We have informed both courts in writing about the fact that we're unable to put a defense together, as we are awaiting a response from the claimant's solicitor with regards the document(s). We haven't heard anything from the courts in response to these letters. However, my calls have revealed that one court is effectively regarding the claim as 'stayed' - not going anywhere was their statement, and the other court stated that the judge could make a default judgement. It is important to note the following: Both claims were originally issued from court 'A' (far away from us) and we subsequently requested for the cases to be transferred to our local court when we sent back the AoS for each case. Court 'A' transferred my case to court 'B' and I have since confirmed everything with 'B'. But, court 'A' have failed to complete the transfer to court 'C' for my wife's case, even though we have had a confirmation letter from court 'A' that the case has been transferred to 'C'! The recent telephone communication with court 'C' has revealed that the case HAS NOT been transferred to court 'C' and is still with 'A'. It is this final contact with court 'A' that has revealed the 'potential' of them entering a 'default judgement'. So, surely court 'A' has failed in its CPR for the case and any 'default judgement' entered by a judge at court 'A' would be suspect and should be thrown out? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?!! Rgds. radmm0

Thanks for your quick reply. The lady at the court suggested today that the claim could 'at any time' get a judgement 'by default'. Is this the case? What does 'stayed' actually mean and does it occur 'automatically' or does the defendant have to 'request' it? In other words, can we just leave everything as it is without rocking the boat? Thanks again. Rgds. radmm0

Hi andyorch Sorry for the delay in my reply to your request, but have had a nightmare getting through to the courts and a getting clear answer from them! Apparently nothing has happened to either claim and they are both 'in the air'. They suggested asking and paying (£80 per claim) for a Strike Out/Off with form N244, is that right? Your help is very much appreciated. Rgds. radmm0

Is Northampton the only Bulk centre? Yes, it is one that has to be cleared on a monthly basis and is only issued to customers with a certain type of bank account and is actually one of the conditions of having that type of account. I certainly think they'll come back with something soon, as it is rather a lot of money they're after. I'll be surprised if they just go away. However, I can't think with what or how they may potentially come back to haunt us!

Thanks CB. I'll PM andyorch shortly. The claims were not lodged at Northampton, but a far away court, which were then transferred to two separate local courts after we sent the AoS back to the original court. I have been in touch with the original court regarding us awaiting the claimant's response to our request for information. We have had letters from the local courts confirming that the claims have been transferred, but no other information since. So, is it safe to assume that the cases are 'suspended' pending the claimant's instructions? I say this, as they stated in their letter to us that 'they will not continue with their action while they are waiting for their client's response'. As far as I understand the account is now in 'dispute', so should I carry on making the token payments or not bother anymore, as making them effectively accepts liability for the debt? Rgds. radmm0

It is now more than 2 months since my wife and I sent a CPR request to the claimant after receiving two separate court claims for our joint bank account. We still haven't heard anything, only a SAR-type response showing the bank account transactions, which has absolutely nothing to do with the POC and our CPR request! I also CCA'ed the NatWest ChargeCard, which came back as no CCA agreement exists, but the balance is obviously zero, since it was paid by the joint bank account! I'll be looking into the legality of the bank paying them separately. We have kept the courts informed of our situation and whereabouts. I have paid a very small amount every month to the bank and recently to their solicitors. Should I continue with this token payment or not? What should we be doing regarding the court claims now? Use a court 'Nxxx' form for each case or ask claimant to cancel the cases? Thanks everyone at CAG, as none of this would have been possible without you guys. Rgds. radmm0

Hi Abby Thanks for your reply and question. I'll check and get back to you re the MasterCard ChargeCard. In the meantime, a lot has happened since my original post. I have sent a CPR 31.14 request for both the OD and MasterCard ChargeCard from Eversheds. They have sent a brief reply explaining that they have sent my request to their client and will get back to me as soon as possible. They also state that 'they will not take any further action whilst they are awaiting a reply from their client'. Does this mean they would inform the court to stop the whole process until further notice or do we have to let the court know? Also, the case was transferred from Cardiff to London after we sent the Ack of Service to Cardiff. We are now awaiting new directions from the London judge, which I have been told by the London court means 'awaiting a new date for the hearing'. Will the claimants stop the case if they can't get the relevant documents to back their POC? Thanks again for your time. Rgds. radmm0

Hi Abby25 Thanks for your very useful posts on this thread, especially CCA 74 and Part V exemption for O/Ds. Would there possibly be some sort of 'exemption' on the Part V exemption for Joint Bank Accounts, as there is a signed mandate when the Joint account is created? i.e. would the bank not need to produce an original of this document/mandate? I would really like you to have a look at my thread about my wife's case, but I'm unable to post links due to having less than 20 posts. You can refer my thread for more detailed info by searching for Eversheds/NatWest. Thanks and regards. radmm0

Hi Kayyak Just wanted to know if you have got any news on your case with NatWest, as my wife and I are going through hell with them at the moment for a Joint Account O/D? We have got less than a week to put together a defence or admit to the debt with regards to a Count Court Claim against her and 2 weeks for a separate one against me. The comments and replies on your thread have been very useful, so any other news about your case could also be beneficial. Rgds. radmm0

Thanks a lot 42man. I have been looking at a lot of threads prior to posting my own one and have seen a lot of suggestions and outcome of various cases. I'll read the link again and make a decision, however, can you let me know what relevant paperwork would be helpful for more advice from yourself or other CAG members? as our problem is that we just don't know which option to go for either! I'll do an extra info post later this morning, as I believe there are other factors in play here that need to be mentioned or may PM you, as the info will make it rather obvious who we are to any spies on the site! Rgds. radmm0

Have been reading your post from Jan2011 and was wondering how it ended for your friend, as my wife and I are in a very similar situation right now with Eversheds/NatWest and any advice/experience would be beneficial? Except they have actually issued court claims against us - individually! Rgds. radmm0

Thanks again for your quick replies. My wife's claim was issued on 08/06/11 with the following PoC: 'Claimant: NatWest. The claimant's claim is for the total sum £nnnnn being the amount due on account ref: i) nnnnnnnn (£nnnnn); agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. A Consumer Default Notice has been served by post on the Defendant in relation to the account. The Defendant has not complied with the Notice. The Claimant claims interest at the contractual rate stipulated in the credit agreement.' My claim was issued on 21/06/11 with the following PoC: 'Claimant: NatWest. The claimant's claim is for the total sum £nnnnn being the amount due on account ref: i) nnnnnnnn (£nnnnn); ii) nnnnnnnn (£nnnn); agreements regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. A Consumer Default Notice has been served by post on the Defendant in relation to each of the accounts. The Defendant has not complied with the Notices. The Claimant claims interest at the contractual rate stipulated in the credit agreements.' I had forgotten to further split my debt with the bank as the Overdraft and a Loan, which is in MY name only. Hope this helps? Rgds. radmm0

I wonder if you could help with the following or pass it to someone that can? Thanks a lot. I have run my own IT business for nearly 8 years and unfortunately due to the financial shock of the last 2.5 years it has struggled to make ends meet for myself and the family. I have recently transferred the lease of the premises to a new person and will be free of all business commitments very soon. We have had all sorts of mortgage and personal unsecured debt problems in the past 2 years, but I managed to agree terms with all the unsecured creditors/DCAs. We have had family and friends help us with the mortgage payments until a few months ago when our monthly payments dropped by more than 50% (as we were on a really bad fixed rate until this February with a huge Redemption Penalty of nearly £25k), so we have managed to pay it ourselves again, since my poor wife is back in full time work and I'm going to be a house-husband for a while until I get myself a job in IT again. I have had a personal bank account with NatWest since 1981 in MY name, which unfortunately became a 'Joint' account in our married name in 1995 in order to deposit a few cheques as wedding presents made to us in our married name! The account then became Advantage Gold, then Advantage Premier and finally Private Banking. All along there has been a Gold MasterCard ChargeCard with me as the Primary Account holder and ALL statements sent to our home address in MY name only (where the balance HAS to be cleared on a monthly basis - just like an Amex chargecard) linked to this account (actually part of the Terms & Conditions of having the various account types mentioned, the latest being Private Banking). The other very important condition listed in the current T&Cs for this type of account is that the account holder(s) must have an annual salary of at least £100k which is paid into the account or £50k in savings with NatWest. I haven't had this sort of money since I left my IT contracting job in 2003 to start my business. My wife has NEVER used the bank account (no funds or salries deposited or withdrawn in her married or maiden name), as she has always had her own HSBC account in her maiden name since the age of 17. I used the MasterCard ChargeCard balance availability for cash flow reasons to juggle our monthly financial problems, but got unstuck in August 2010 after nearly 20 years of using the card without ANY problems. I wasn't able to clear the monthly balance (nearly £10k) on time. I tried to get the Private Banking team to ask MasterCard for more time to clear the balance, but neither party wanted to listen or help. What has amazed me is that they're behaving as if I'm a 'criminal' or effectively accusing me of never intending to re-pay my debt to them, even after nearly 30 years of having an account with them and all the interest and charges already paid to them! They then cleared the outstanding balance, which is really MY debt and in MY name as the Primary Card Holder on the MasterCard account, by adding it to the 'joint' bank account, thus increasing the Overdraft substantially overnight. NatWest then started complaining about the level of the Overdraft and passed my account internally to their Risk team who in turn passed it onto their Collections dept. All along I was 'jointly' offering to pay a monthly amount until my financial situation improved, but NONE of the NatWest brigade wanted to know. They then passed my file to Triton and my wife's to Evershed's. Both of us have tried every effort to agree some sort of payment arrangement with these outfits, like the ones I have in place with my other creditors/DCAs, but to no avail (considering that one of my big creditors that has agreed to a small monthly payment is actually NatWest's parent - RBS!!). Triton finally passed my file to Evershed's too, who have shown no mediation skills either! My wife and I have been issued separate Court Claims for the total Overdraft amount by Eversheds/NatWest Bank (more than £25K) for our 'joint' bank account. My wife has sent the Acknowledgment of Service back giving her case another 14 days from tomorrow and I'll be doing the same shortly. I have considerable personal unsecured debt that has been paid in monthly installments for nearly 2 years by agreeing with DCAs and original Creditors - various credit cards and loans totaling over £120k. All this debt is in my name, which I may put into an IVA. The only debt in 'joint' names is the Bank Overdraft, which consists of the original Overdraft (more than £12k) and the NatWest Private Banking MaterCard ChargeCard balance (more than £10k), which has been added to the Overdraft. Can anyone suggest if we have any legs to stand on regarding my wife using the T&C of the account to 'wriggle' out of having anything to do with this account, as she's never earned £100k or paid ANY salaries into this 'joint' account (two of the most important conditions of having this account)? Can we use the fact that the ChargeCard account is in my name and has nothing to do with my wife, so even if she has a 'joint' debt, it is only just over £12k of the Overdraft only? Do NatWest have to physically possess and be able to produce the original Joint Account Mandate (signed by us both) to prove my wife's liability? Thanks again for your time and any help you can provide. Please ask away if you need to know anymore than I've given above. Rgds. radmm0