Hi Diddydicky I totally agree with you - a limited amount of banter relieves tension. But I don't understand the point you are trying to make in asking how many posts I have read in relation to how many I have made??? Never mind. And whenever I've read a post that hijacks a thread I've always seen one of the forum moderators help that person move to their own thread. Reading my comment now, it sounds a little like I, me, myself was trying to moderate or 'tell off', and that's not my role in this forum - that was not my intention. Anyway, don't answer this, anyone, cos this is R&B's thread. Off to eat ice cream. Regards, Liz

Hi R&B Not to be a sobersides (I have a sense of humour, same as everyone), but if you have a problem serious enough to put on the site, do you not think that exchanging banter about high heel stockings, shorts and basques is off-putting and a waste of time for people reading your thread who might reply and hopefully help you? I personally find that having to sift between banter and your actual real concerns makes me not want to bother reading your thread at all. After all, it's not really what this site is all about. Please accept that this is just my opinion. I hope you will be able to take this comment in the helpful way in which it was intended. Regards Liz

Hello Everybody My application to set aside is on 29th June. The CEO of Amex, Fort Lauderdale, had someone in his office write to me but the man was totally out of the loop as far as what is happening is concerned. He told me that Brighton office had told him that they had issued a SD against me. That was the sum of his knowledge! I put all the reasons for dismissal of the SD in my application to set aside. I am wary about printing it here but I don't know what else I need in my defence, other than Amex owe me money! And I would like your opinions. A different credit card company sent me what they call my agreement. It's a blank application form. They are saying that it's my original form because of the Electronic Signature amendment to the Consumer Credit Act. However, the "agreement" they sent me doesn't even have a box for me to put a cross in. Am I right in thinking that if a credit card company fails to provide the original signed credit agreement and the SAR within the timescale, then the agreement is unenforceable? Recently a postman jumped out of his parcel van, ran to my front door, put two "sorry you were out, these needed a signature" slips through it, both signed by different postpersons, and using two completely different times, and ran back to his van without ringing the doorbell and not allowing time for anyone to reach the front door!! I was told this by a neighbour as I wasn't even at home. I didn't go to pick up whatever the two letters were. The date the postman did this was the last day before CCA and SAR request deadlines for two different credit card companies, so if the companies were playing with me, thinking they'd leave it until the last day to give me the documents, they were unwittingly foiled by our lovely postmen breaking the rules and doing postal rounds for each other. God bless the Post Office. Regards Liz

Hi Everyone Yes, prob will be making complaints higher up the chain. Thankx for the support, unhappy chap. Quick question. My SD was so detailed, do I need an actual Defence document? Or is it to update the fact that Amex haven't provided me with any documents at all? Regrds Liz

Hi Chimpski Good news re the NVQ. If you remember my last message to you - makes you wonder if your firm are reading this site! I find a common occurrence with employers is that they stay annoyed with one employee until another employee does something to get their attention. (Not that I'm being disloyal to "my kind":D) But let's hope someone annoys your employer soon. And in the meantime, you are keeping detailed notes of everything, yes? With times and dates, and not letting anybody see you do it, and don't tell anyone. And may I suggest you don't let your notetaking slip. Bearing driver's hours into consideration, how about doing a favour for your boss? If someone goes sick? You cover it - short notice, maybe -and settle for reasonable pay for doing it? If you have a chance to do this, your employer may be cynical about it but if you do it a couple of times, you might find his attitude changes. Thanks for the quotes' know-how!! Regards Liz

Hi Kai2 and Elche May I just say, Kai2, you seem to be fixating on this point of whether your redundancy starts after or before the start of your maternity leave. It is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. You gave your employer your MATB1 before he gave you notice of redundancy. Unless your whole company is ceasing to trade, you are exempt from selection for redundancy. And by the way, your company's payroll department must give you dates if you ask for them. If you do have a payroll department, don't go in guns blazing. Go in and cry, (not too much), and say you don't understand what's happening. Can they help? Pick a time when the boss isn't around. I agree with Elche, you need to sit over a desk and go through your paperwork with CAB. You are obviously confused by taking the advice of too many people, so pick one and stick with them, and I suggest that 'one' is the CAB. Best wishes Liz

Hi Keistokas I believe your employer has breached the disciplinary redundancy procedure in several areas. It is quite challenging to give you accurate advice when the complete picture is not known. You say the redundancy pool was circa 50, but who was in the pool? For your employer to use the method of having a "pool" he must be closing down those sections of the company, or perhaps the work that those sections do has been reduced? The burden of proof for this method of selection is on the employer. If he cannot prove that the work is not coming into those sections, it is not acceptable for an employer to target some employees and not everyone in the company. Under those conditions, an employer cannot simply give letters out or call some employees in for an interview, and tell them they have been "identified under risk". An employer must bring all employees together for a meeting and tell everybody that "there is a potential redundancy situation". He must say the word, "potential". At the meeting, if you don't have a union rep, your employer should have told you to choose one or more persons to be your spokesperson/s. The employer must state during the meeting which employees are "not being considered for selection" and why. (ie, pregnant women, management, the cook). This is not at odds with my previous comment. There are legitimate people who would be exempt. I believe you should have been offered an alternative position, possibly less senior, taking less money. The criteria or basis for selection is up to the employer, but he should have explained the criteria for selection during the meeting. Any criteria using a marking system must be basic categories that every employee can be marked against. By this I mean, "skills, qualifications, disciplinary record, time-keeping, time off sick, etc". No fancy "agile doo dahs" that you've never heard of before. The employer does not appear to be acting reasonably. I am assuming here, that he has not offered short-time working or across the board cut in salaries to avoid redundancies. He should have mentioned all alternatives at the meeting/s and explained why he is not pursuing all possible methods of avoiding redundancies. Also, your company could dismiss the probationers and put the qualified employees in their roles. In my opinion, your company keeping the probationers is not logical, unless you are in the first wave (10% of employees) and he is keeping the probationers back for the second wave (25%). I believe you have a case for unfair dismissal on several counts, and I believe you should pursue your grievance using your company's grievance procedure. I would also suggest that you get an appointment with the CAB as soon as you can. You need to sit over a desk and show someone all your paperwork. Once they've seen your paperwork, they can advise you on the exact timeline, deadlines for you to make a claim to the Employment Tribunal. You may also like to consider networking with others who are being made redundant, to see if they are making claims. I also think you should be pragmatic and start looking for another job. If you find one, take it, and still make the claim. By the way, your HR lady probably had enough, got a job, and agreed to go, with a pay-out. (In fact apologies Kai2, I got my threads mixed up earlier and said this to you.) Regards Liz

Hi Kai2 I hate to say this, but don't rely on solicitors. They will feed you bits of the law, because they want you to stay needy, and use their services. And they will want paying! My background is that I am an employer, who has made employees redundant, including a firm with pregnant employees. It looks as though your employer is not going to cease trading for the moment. If he was in talks with his bank and accountant, the redundancies would number 10% - that's the recommended "first wave". Second wave is 25%, etc. However, have you noticed another 5 people leaving in total? If so, it is possible that the first wave has been made up of clever people, or people in the know, who have secret deals with the directors, and then gone out and got another job, and jumped ship. Your HR lady would qualify for this category. She may well have come to an agreement to be counted in the redundancies (to help the firm reach 10% required by the bank) in return for a pay out. This is supposition, remember, on my part. Only you know the exact details of your firm. Your employer needs to show that he is being reasonable. There is no doubt in my mind that you should not have selected. Disregarding that, if you haven't been offered another position, even a more junior one at less favourable terms, your employer is not showing that he is acting reasonably. You have an absolute claim for unfair dismissal and sex discrimination. ACAS are generally useless over the telephone. However, you can take out a grievance with your firm, and then if it is not resolved, go to an Employment Tribunal. At that stage the Employment Tribunal will ask ACAS to be involved in mediation. You will very probably end up with the Tribunal deciding in your favour and giving you an award. BUT, This is the real world part. Are you, as a fat, bumpier every day, sick all day, emotional, pregnant woman - going to want to do this? You need to consider putting yourself and your baby (unborn and after) through the stress. You may win a money award but your job will definitely be gone. ACAS will not recommend to you that you go back to work at your firm, if it is still trading. And your employer does not have to take you back. You need to work out the possibilities as far as money is concerned. Whatever you get as an award could affect your redundancy money, or the other way around. It's not a certainty. Your employer may turn up and fight. Your maternity benefits will be picked up by the Benefits Office, if your firm goes out of business, and you need to be speaking to them to confirm this for your own piece of mind, and confirm the money situation if you are made redundant. No-one else - speak to the Benefits Office. You need to have an appointment with them. Your employer should also be giving you time off to go to job appointments, though in your condition I don't see any employer giving you an interview. Just because the Tribunal decides in your favour, doesn't mean you will get the money without going to court. And most importantly for you (remember I am an employer), in this recession there are many people applying for jobs. When you apply for your next job, do you think an employer will employ you - a new mum, likely to be off work a lot, whose reference from the last employer is just the basic one except for the additional information that you took your last employer to Tribunal? Sorry to be so brutal. Whatever decision you make, I wish you the best of luck. Regards Liz

Hello Foolishgirl Yes, my local court is dealing with 40+ bankruptcies a day, so they are busy. And yes, please, I'd love help with this nearer to June. I'd be very grateful. Catch up with you all later. Regards Liz:)

Hi WelshMam2009 Thank you. I will keep you all updated. Regards Liz (nearly wrote my real name then. Oops )

Oh hello 42Man, Didn't see you there. Actually, bantering morality with a judge wouldn't worry me. I used to do it for a living. I'd got out of the habit but it's coming back to me now. Fighting back is strangely addictive. Regards Liz

Hi Everyone, American Express ran out of time today for providing me with a true copy of the CCA. My County Court date arrived today. The Set Aside hearing is listed for the end of June 09. And I received a letter from the Compliance Officer of Moorcrofts, saying he was investigating my complaint. They actually sent me a copy of the Financial Ombudsman Service booklet! I will write to Amex tomorrow, possibly. But I am not minded to let them have another 14 days. They still have time to reply to the SAR. I know I am mixing my subjects, but I have had letters now from both the Chairman & CEO of Amex and Richard Branson's office, (MBNA) saying they will investigate my complaints. Regards Liz

Hi Who did you complain to about your grievance and was there anybody present when you did it? If so, who were they and would they write a statement for you detailing what they remembered, felt, saw and heard? Regards Liz

Hi Kai2 and everyone I've entered the conversation because Kai2 sent me a PM. May I please know, Kai2, the exact chronological timeline. Did you receive notification in writing from your employer that your position had been selected for possible redundancy BEFORE you told your employer (in writing, I hope) that you were pregnant? Or, had you given your employer your MATB1 BEFORE you received a 'possible redundancy' letter? Or, had you told a member of the management in your firm (or if someone else, who?) that you were pregnant and then received your 'possible redundancy' letter? If this was the case, what was the time elapsed between your telling someone at work and you receiving your 'possible redundancy' letter? Regards Liz

Hi What date did you start your grievance? Was this by letter? Did you get a first letter from the company telling you "your position has been selected for consideration for redundancy"? and inviting you to a meeting? What date was that letter? Were you told that you could be accompanied at that meeting? Did your consultation period start before or after the HR lady was dismissed? Are you male or female, by the way? And the others three who have been selected for redundancy, male or female? The ones who are left? Male or female? Have you been offered part-time working? Have you been offered a more junior position with less pay? In short, have you been offered anything to keep you employed? Regards Liz

Hi Keistokas Welshmam2009 asked me to join in. Keistokas, could you please give me some more information. I need to know what has your employer done and told the employees in the run-up to telling you personally that your position has been chosen to be made redundant. It is never the person who is made redundant. It is the job. This is quite important. If you are made redundant, your employer cannot take on anyone in your place for six months. So even if the company continues trading, the need for the work that you do in your position must have ceased. What has happened at your company? Has it ceased trading? (I mean, has the company stopped doing business.) Has your employer had a meeting with all employees together and told you all that some of your positions are now redundant? It is not enough for an employer to write to all employees with the reason for redundancies. The employer must have a face-to-face meeting with employees and it must be done within a timescale. Please give me the dates of all letters, what was said in letters, but more importantly, the dates of meetings, if employees were split up into small groups for meetings or if one big meeting was held. Who told you all about the redundancies? What is the top boss? Was it personnel department, a manager, engineering manager? Please also tell me (you say engineering). Is it precision engineering? Does your company have one main supplier? Are you connected with the car industry? Exactly how long have you been employed? From date of start. The date on your contract. If you are being made redundant, the employer must count a notice period (probably one week) in your redundancy. This is important, as you say you have been employed 12 months. Have you been given a letter telling you your date of redundancy (last day to be worked? How old are you? What kind of contract are you on? And forgive me for asking this, but it is necessary. Are you a contract worker in the UK or do you live in the UK? What country are you from? The other 9 people who have had their positions made redundant. Are they British or what? How long have they worked for the company? Important question. How many people in your company do your job? Are there 4 or 5 of you in one section or department doing the same job? I know it's a lot of questions, Keistokas, but I do need the information. I will probably ask you more questions. My background is that I am an employer and I have made employees redundant (and taken some back on again, I am happy to say). I am up-to-date with current disciplinary procedures. Redundancy is a disciplinary procedure so employers must follow the rules. If they do not, it is unfair dismissal, no matter if you are being made redundant or not. If any of my questions are not clear, please come back to me. Or if you think of anything else, questions or information, also leave a message in open forum. Regards Liz

Hi Pat We're in a cross-over period as far as compulsory is concerned. Currently if an employer offers CPD to one employee it must be offered to all employees but the employer has the choice to say no CPD at all. The employer can offer it on a needs basis, but is risking, in not offering it to all employees, a claim for exclusion - indirect discrimination under equal opportunities legislation; ie, someone is refused training, can't progress at work, or would be paid a higher salary with his NVQ or whatever qualification, so resigns and claims constructive unfair dismissal. If an employee is clever, he can claim under that law, or Employment Rights Act 1996, (can't remember the section) and will soon be able to claim under the current workforce reforms which are at white paper stage, and which are being put into operation already by the larger companies and public sector employers UK wide, as CPD becomes compulsory. I believe the transport industry and National Health have put theirs into operation, so has the Education Department, eg, I believe teachers now have to do 30 hours CPD every year (or lose their job) - part-timers minimum of 6 hours. Basically, CPD is now compulsory and linked with quality/standards verification, probably with a few industries exempt. It's interesting because as I understand it, the word compulsory now applies to the action of both the employer and the employee. What industry are you in? I know that my business is already working to the new rules, and I am busy sending employees (pushing and shoving some of the older ones:)) to all sorts of courses required by Ofsted. On top of this, as part of the quality/standards verification, all existing qualificiations are now being examined to see if they come up to standard. Those with sub-standard quals will be expected to retrain. So you will have someone with 20 years' experience being expected to go back to the classroom! 'Sub-standard' is partly specified by out-of-date! Qualifications will be awarded points and if an employee doesn't have enough points, go retrain or lose your job!! Sorry, this has got ever so long again!!! Must go, I'm in the middle of two disciplinaries. Regards Liz PS How do you get a quote to go dark background?

Hi Yep, no company is allowed to restrict testing to just their drivers, but have to include admin and the bosses too. Here's hoping for a good result tomorrow. Best wishes Liz

Hi Something occurred to me. I believe you said you are a driver. So I imagine you realise that your employer has the legal right to randomly breathalyse 1 in 10 employees. In view of your being at odds with your management, may I suggest that you make sure you don't have a drink until this is over, and then keep a check on the hours needed to clear the alcohol from your system before you start your shift. Also, be careful about mouth wash which has alcohol in it. Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know. And try not to be paranoid!!! Regards Liz

Yes, sorry. This is a personal loan, unsecured. I was maintaining payments until the recession. I am going to look through my records to see what documents I can come up with, as to date of loan, etc, but I am certain I haven't had a default notice or notice of termination. The last letter I had from Alliance & Leicester was dated 24 March 2009 and stated this in the body. "Dear ... Account Number: ... Balance: £17,826.40 Arrears: £2,378.80 I regret that the arrears situation has not improved and remains unacceptable. Your account is now being considered for legal action. Please note that legal proceedings may now be issued against you without further reference and costs will be added to your debt. If you wish to avoid this action, please contact us on 0800 731 8020. Yours sincerely Steve Bailey Collections Manager Collections Department" Regards Liz

Many thanks, Alphageek. Have posted. Thank you again. Regards Liz.

Hi all I am attaching a letter I have received today from Shoosmiths, solicitors. I have had no communication from them before. I have not had a letter from Alliance & Leicester saying; Shoosmiths are acting for them, they are going to take legal action, a Default Notice or Notice of Termination. I did actually post by recorded delivery yesterday a CCA and SAR to Alliance & Leicester. They have been told that I have an appointment with CCCS (and the date). I would be very interested in all comments/suggestions. Regards Liz

Hi, I'm writing this from an employer's point of view. I have chaired many disciplinary meetings with "erring, troublesome employees". But I have not forgotten the time when I was an employee. Make no mistake, if you have been "invited" to attend a meeting, this is not an "informal chat". The employer is using this as part of the company's disciplinary procedure, so they MUST obey the rules under the Employment Rights Act. This is the first meeting before you get given your first verbal warning, unless it is very clearly stated in writing that this is a grievance meeting which you have raised. You must receive a letter from the company informing you of the time and date you have to attend, the reason for the meeting, you must be given "reasonable" notice (at least one week) and (very important) they must state in the letter that you are entitled to have one person sit in the meeting with you. That person can only be either a current work colleague or a UK officially recognised trade union official. The union official is usually better, but only you will know whether or not your trade union official is in the pocket of the management. (It happens.) Even if the union rep is weak, it is still to your advantage to take him in over a work colleague. If you cannot find a work colleague to go in with you, (for fear of reprisal from the management) you are entitled to ask for a different time and date in order to find someone to go in with you. They cannot refuse and they cannot force you to have the meeting without that person, if you require one. (Instant discrimination and harassment.) There are rules about the meeting. They should provide drinking water, (take your own), an adequate chair, a desk for you to put your papers on, and breaks every ten minutes (if you require it or if you get upset). If your chair is lower than management's chair, or if it is facing the sun (it happens, though not by me!) ask for a different chair or change its position. Your colleague may speak to you and may ask questions but they may not answer on your behalf. CPD - Continuing Professional Development, must be available to all employees in a company, not just some. If the company says they are strapped for cash in this recession, then nobody gets training! When did these others start their training? The company may have changed its policy and you need to check this. Lack of communication from management seems to be escalating this situation. A good manager would have spoken to you one-to-one in private and come to some agreement with you. If training is not available to everyone, the company must be able to come up with a rock solid reason as to why they have blocked you, or an Employment Tribunal will decide in your favour. By the way, the very mention of those two words "Employment Tribunal" will terrify your employer, so keep that in reserve, when you need to put them off their stroke. At the meeting, the management may very well try to get you annoyed, so they can say they have had to terminate the meeting. DO NOT RESPOND. I say again. DO NOT RESPOND. If when you are at work at any time, your line manager comes up and tries to goad you, usually when there's no-one else around, put your hands down by your sides and take one step back. (Literally.) This shows that he is being aggressive (he will naturally step forward, unless he is very clued up) and it is intimidation. NEVER raise your voice or make any threats. Never be cocky or say something like, "Your game won't work". Don't forewarn them that you know what they're doing. And yes, good advice, keep a record. Dates, times, those present. What you remember was said, who it was said by, what you felt, and what was done (actions, hand gestures), other people present. Sign each note, with the time and date you made the note. On separate pieces of paper, as you may not wish to share all of your notes. Your senior managers will be distancing themselves from your line manager's behaviour. If you experience this and bring a grievance they can say it didn't come from them. Your senior managers will be being very nice to you until the meeting. Play their game. Be nice to them. Make sure you go through your contract with a fine toothcomb. Is there a company handbook which constitutes part of your contract? It is your responsibility to ensure that you know this front to back. A copy should be available to you without your having to ask management for it (harassment.) Same with company policies and procedures. These should be in your staff room (if you have one) or in an area common to all staff. Don't make a big thing of this now, but make sure you request a copy of policies and procedures, and company handbook IN WRITING, (check for reference to these in your contract). If you do make a request verbally, they can deny it. Don't go over the top and send your manager recorded delivery letters. There's no coming back from that if you want to continue working there. At the meeting you are not allowed to bring up any grievance that is not to do with CPD. If you do that, or ask for a separate grievance meeting about anything now, you may as well resign right now, because they will get you in the end. (Like I said, speaking as an employer.) Remember that the employer is cursing you right now, because he has to organise this meeting and take time out of his day to have it, with another manager, and possibly cover shifts for anyone he is taking out of work to attend the meeting. He will probably also have consulted his solicitor, which he has to pay for, and he'll be miffed about that. Take details in with you of the other employees and the courses they have been allowed to go on, and the effect their courses have on the company. (ie, none.) DO NOT MENTION THESE EMPLOYEES BY NAME. The director, if he's any good, will immediately quote the Data Protection Act and refuse to discuss other employees, so refer to them as employee A who works in (Section, department), employee B, etc. How long have you worked for the company? How long have the other employees going on the courses worked for the company? Are you on the same pay scale level, job, etc. Gather as much information on paper as you can to make your case. Who has had training in the past? The company may have a limit to the number of people they can release for operational reasons. At some stage in the meeting, you need to prove that you are acting reasonably (always thinking of what it will sound before an Employment Tribunal). They will slip in a question, "What are you hoping will be the outcome of this meeting?" Do not say, "I'll take you to an employment tribunal and get compensation for hurt feelings". (Which I believe is now £5,000, but don't quote me.) Say something like, "I am hoping we can come to a reasonable solution such as my being allowed to undertake my training. I certainly think this situation has escalated out of all proportion, for example, I had a conversation with the director and it got a little heated between us. Two men. That's life. We should have forgotten it and walked away. This is wasting my time. (Shrug of the shoulders, here.) It's wasting your time. I don't want to take this to an Employment Tribunal if I don't have to (BANG. Stop speaking here for a little while.)[You will need to practise this.] If you can, wait until you see the director start to speak and interrupt him with, "I just want to get on with my work and do my training. If you can agree that, we can put this behind us." (Stop speaking.) If there is another manager there, don't look at him while you are saying this. Look directly at the one you are speaking to, so the second one can't interrupt you. Before you go in the meeting have a very good idea of what you will say. Get someone to practise asking you nasty questions you don't expect. If it happens in the meeting, sit back and appear to think. Don't speak immediately. Use the phrase, "I think we're getting off track here." and return to the subject. Or, "I don't think that's helpful." (and carry on saying whatever you want to say.) A suggestion here. Don't bother with ACAS. They're rubbish. You get a different answer each time you ring them, and they don't live in the real world. And the mere mention of their name will make your employer boil, which you don't want, if you do want your job. By the way, have you put in a calm, nicely worded written grievance about your training and confirming that you are having a meeting. You need to, before the meeting, so that management can't write to you later and say the meeting was held as a disciplinary against you, rather than a grivance meeting for you. I would be very interested to know what communication has passed between you and management in writing? Sorry this is long-winded. I hope it all makes sense. I don't mean to worry you more than you are. Remember the best defence is to be well prepared. Liz