Hi Andy I lost the judge refused to set aside. He asked me 'well tell me your position' I started to read through both my witness statements and he said this is not a trial so I reverted to the fact the credit agreement was application form and point 15 in supplementary witness statement. He asked me if I owed the money to which I replied I acknowledge a disputed debt to BOS and not to IND. I also said the agreement to which I was tied was not the same as the application form to which he stated it clearly says above my signature that 'this consumer credit agreement is regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 and I should have read that before the set aside application' To cut a long story short he blew it all off and said nothing I have raised in either witness statement was good enough to defend. Regards the hearsay evidence he said it's not unusual today to accept that. Absolutely gutted as it's a life changer. Thanks for trying anyway

Thanks Andy I'm off to the hearing now I'll call in later with the result Whatever happens I'll always be grateful for your time Kind regards

Hi Andy Thanks for this... So if the judge does not admit my suppliemental WS whats to stop me mentioning all those points during the hearing. Also for clarity do you mean I mean application for permission to submit the SWS?

Andy I got home from working away earlier and had two letters from IND through the door, any points in them I need to be aware of?: 1)IND V ********** We write with reference tto the above matter and further to the order dated ** OCT 2014. The defendant attending the hearing with a draft defence that he had not previously filed or served. The application hearing was adjourned and the court gave leave to the claimant to file and serve a further statement if so advised arriving from the draft defence. The claimant filed and served a further resonding to the draft defence as permitted. The claimant has now received a further witness staement from the defendant in which he states that he was given leave to file a further witness statement. He was not given this. The claimant therefore asks the court to disallow the defendants witness statement dated ** nov 2014. A copy of this letter has been sent to the defendant. IND V ********* 2) We write with reference to the above matter and further to receiving your suppliementary witness statement dated ** nov 2014 which we have previously stated to you you did not have permission to do. With regards to your paragraph 15 we state that we have given you notice of our intention to rely upon CPR 33.2 (1) (b) and section 2 (1)( (a) of the civil evidence act 1995 at paragraph 3 of both our witness statements. We note you also refer to CPR 23 PD 3&4. We are not sure how this relevant to your query. We trust this clarifies matters

Thanks Andy I am very grateful and yes I am okay, I may drop in when I get back from working away on Sunday to see if you have added anything other than that Ill drop in after the hearing Regards

Wow, How should I send this, next day with proof so we can prove they had the required 3 days? Thanks Andy

Thanks Andy Could I ask what that means in layman terms?

Andy I will have to send this before midday tomorrow to both the local court and IND as I am in work 12-12, its just paragraph 3 (I wish to rely on....) do I still need this if so what am I relying on? let me know your happy with it and ill print it off and send it recorded first class to both. SUPPLIEMENTALWITNESS STATEMENT 1. I [name edited] of , will state as follows:- 2. I am a LITIGANT in person 3. I wish to rely upon ….???(DO I NEEDTHIS) 4. This statement is is made in extension to the defendants previous witness statement dated ** Oct 2014. 5, The defendant has leave to file a further witness statement in response to the claimants additional witness statement 6. The defendant notes the additional points and the allegations are denied as follows: 7 & 8 noted 9. We do not have a copy of the default notice in our file allegedly dated 10th December 2008 10.Paragraph 10 is denied, documentary evidence has not been supplied. 11. Paragraph 11 is denied the defendant sent a letter requesting a copy of the CCA and In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the consumer credit Act 1974. The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under theauthority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required.Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it isrendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states 127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document(whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations undersection 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner). 12. Paragraph 12 Is denied, the claimant has not proved how the debt has arisen as the documents requested from the OC have not been supplied. The date of the agreement as indicated by the Halifax do not correspond with the dated document supplied in the request referred to in paragraph (11). 13. Paragraph 13 is denied notice of assignment was not received. 14. In response to paragraph 14, The defendant would ask that the judgement be set aside and the costs of the claimant arranging an agent to attend the hearings be dismissed.

Andy Am I right in presuming that if the Halifax state the agreement started on a different date than the document(application form they forwarded) then this is not a legal document they can rely on? Here is my attempt.. SUPPLIEMENTAL WITNESS STATEMENT 1. I [name edited] of , will state as follows:- 2. I am a LITIGANT in person 3. I wish to rely upon ….???[B](DO I NEEDTHIS)[/b]NO 4. This statement is is made in response to the Claimants Witness Statement dated ** Oct 2014. 5, The defendant has leave to file a further witness statement in response to the claimants additional witness statement 6. The defendant notes the additional points and the allegations are denied as follows: 7 & 8 noted(SHOULD I PUT NOTED) Yes 9. We do not have a copy of the default notice in our file allegedly dated 10th December 2008 10.Paragraph 10 is denied, documentary evidence has not been supplied. 11. Paragraph 11 is denied the defendant sent a letter requesting a copy of the CCA and In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under theauthority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required.Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it isrendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states 127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document(whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations undersection 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner). This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary(House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to theauthority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms underthe Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced. Remove do not quote case law in a WS 12. Paragraph 12 Is denied, the claimant has not proved how the debt has arisen as the documents requested from the OC have not been supplied. The date of the agreement as indicated by the Halifax do not correspond with the dated document supplied in the request referred to in paragraph (11). 13. Paragraph 13 is denied notice of assignment was not received. 14. In response to paragraph 14, The defendant would ask that the judgement be set aside and the costs of the claimant arranging an agent to attend the hearings be dismissed. 15. The defendant respectfully requests that the court confirms that the claimant has made application to adduce hearsay evidence pursuant to CPR 23 PD 3&4 and CPR 33 PD 2

Andy do you want me to have a go and post something up for your perusal?

No, I havent unfortunately. I have been to court to appeal a CCJ but it was before I joined CAG so I didnt have anything. Suffice to say I got annihilated off the claimants agent and lost

I havent Andy only the one you dictated to me earleir in the thread

Cheers Andy I appreciate it and will check back later Kind regards

Hi Andy Do I need to send off this further witness statement tomorrow, as that will then give them the three days before the hearing on Monday? Regards

Ok Andy I appreciate your knowledge here!! When you say deliver theirs right at the death do you mean at the court or post it so they receive it right at the death Also whilst I think on; last time the agent called me into a room and said it was court etiquette to discuss matters before entering the court. Is that true should I do this next time. Kind regards

D Hopefully that's the reason

I asked the judge he said I could but only the agent is mentioned on the court papers. I would like to Andy as I think it's only fair if they can but you know better than me if that's allowed. In answer to your timescales the sooner the better as I leave to work away again Friday be back Monday next week. The hearing is on the 24th Thanks Andy

Fantastic by TO its sad no one knows why TO does not post

Update.. Still no SAR but a letter from the PPI dept saying they cant deal with me because they don't know who I am (they do they phoned me as I stated earlier in the thread). I wouldn't mind but I never spoke to them it was passed by another internal dept who have admitted PPI is on my records but unfortunately this was over the phone(no more phone calls,letters only) They have asked for a utility bill etc etc before they can proceed with my request so Ive sent that out to them. Then got another letter stating they want exact credit card numbers, mortgage numbers dates blah blah blah Is their a procedure that will stop this nonsense? Further update... Just going through mail and they have returned SAR chque to my missus, seriously annoying. I have sent this letter and sent it recorded [template removed] What is the reason the template was removed?

So true Fletch, Cerb was a very decent person helped me with loads of stuff that I will truly never forget I wonder how many caggers whom have helped others and given their time for free have not been thanked for whatever reason they no longer post

Andy I have kept most of what they sent me and although I appreciate that this may be for the court case I thought it may be worth a mention now: 1)In the defence IND state that the default notice was dated 10th december 2008; I have no record of this default notice but don't know whether that is now relevant but according to the letter below the agreement ended in march 2009.see below 2)Halifax sent me a letter in April 2009 stating we entered into the agreement in ** Aug 2004 WHICH IS NOT THE DATE OF THE APPLICATION FORM IND SENT and are relying on in court. I can get a copy of this letter uploaded if you feel its important.

Haha Guff a great word to describe that Thanks for the help here Andy

Andy Very very relieved to have the form, I was within my rights to submit a defence within 28 days wasn't I ? Thats the draft defence I submitted as per your instructions and is contained within their file; Thanks

Hi Andy I have tracked down a copy of my AOS on which I stated I would forward my defence within 28 days as was an option. The form is dated 31/08/2014 but stamped by CCBC the 11th of Sept. As I stated earlier in the thread the judgement came through whilst I was awaiting the reply to my AOS so somewhere it was mislaid. Northampton CCBC said they never received it or had no record of it, but it has a CCBC stamp on it. This was eventually forwarded to me from my local court though they too said they had not seen or received it. I have also received a new witness statement from IND which is below for your perusal: i don't know whether its relevant but I never asked for a statement of account as stated in point 11. just a compliant CCA if you need to see the actual letter please let me know. WITNESS STATEMENT 1. I [name edited] of P O BOX 1293 PE2 2NU, will state as follows:- 2. I am a legal assistant employed by IND ltd with authority to make this statement 3. I wish to rely upon CPR33.2(1) (a) of the civil evidence act 1995. I would mention I have no personal knowledge of the conduct of the account before the issue of this claim. The documents lodged with the court speak for themselves 4. This statement is is made in extension to the claimants previous witness statement dated ** Oct 2014 and in compliance with order dated ** oct 2014. 5, The claimant notes that the court ordered that: ''2 The claimant has leave to file a further witness statement if so advised arising from the draft defence filed and served by the defendant to be filed and served by 4.00pm on the ** Nov 2014 6. The claimant has now had sight of the defendants draft defence dated ** Oct 2014 copy of which is attached at EVW1 7,Paragraph 1 is noted and denied. The claim form refers to the original debt owner,the account number,the assignment,the pre-action conduct,and the balance due. The claimant notes that the defendant relies on CPR 16.5(3). (3) a DEFENDANT WHO- A) Fails to deal with an allegation but B) Has set out their defence the nature of the case in relation to the issue which that allegation is relevant, shall be be taken to require that allegation to be proved. The claimant notes that the defendant failed to file a defence to the claim. The claimant notes that the defendant's staement dated ** Oct 2014 is a draft defence. The claimant states that they have proved their claim in the previous witness statement. The claimant has shown that the defendant has borrowed money how the debt has arisen,assignment, and that the debt is still due and owing. 8, Paragraph 2 is noted. The claimant can confirm that in 2001, the Bank of Scotland merged with the Halifax to form HBOS plc. In January 2009 HBOS plc was aquired by Lloyds TSB. The claimants were assigned the debt by the Bank Of Scotland who had control over the debt. No notice of assignment between the banks was needed as they are part of the same company. Notice of assignment was sent to the defendant on the 31 ** 2011.(This was attached to the previous witness staement at EVW3 & EVW4. The claimant states that this notice is compliant with the provisions of S136 and the law of property act 136. The claimant considers this served as per provisions contained in CPR 6.26 The law of property act 1925 s136 ''LEGAL ASSIGNMENTS OF THINGS IN ACTION. Any absolute assignment by writing under the hand of the assignor(not purporting to be by the way of charge only)of any debt or other legal thing in action,of which express notice in writing has been given to the debtor,trustee or other person from whom the assignor would have been entitled to claim such debt or thing in action,is effectual in law(subject to equities having priority over the right of the assignee) to pass and transfer from the date of such notice:- a)the legal right to such debt or thing in action b)all legal and other remedies for the same and c) the power to give a good discharge for the same without the concurrence of the assignor, provided that,if the debtor, trustee or other person liable in respect of such debt or thing in action has notice a) that the assignment is disputed by the assignor or any person claiming under him,or b)of any other opposing or conflicting claims to such debt or thing in action;he may,if he thinks fit,either call upon the persons making claim hitherto to interplead concerning the same or pay the debt or other thing in action into court under provisions of the trustee act,1925. (2) This section does not affect the provisions of the policies of assurance act 1867 (3) The county court has provisions (including power to retrieve payment of money or securities into court)under the proviso the subsection (1) of this section where the amount or value of the debt or thing in action does not exceed £30000 The requirements of a legal assignment are as above.The claimant believes that the letter dated ** AUG 20111 complies with the legislation. Section 136 does not specify who must give notice of assignment, so it may come form either the assignee or assignor. The claimant also notes that other than the requirement that it is in writing, there is no prescribed form for the notice of assignment. THE CLAIMANT ALSO NOTES THAT THE LETTER BEFORE ACTION ALSO CONFIRMS TO THE DEFENDANT THAT THE CLAIMANT IS THE OWNER OF THE DEBT 9. Paragraph 3 is denied. The original debt owner has confirmed that the agreement was terminated upon the defendants failure to comply with the terms of the agreemnt. The default notice was dated 10 December 2008 and the balance of this was £4,***.00 10.Paragraph 4 is denied. The claimant has complied with section iii and vi and annex 8 of the PD pre-action conduct.The claimant states that they sent a letter before action to the defendant. This was addressed to the current residential address. The claimant considers that this letter is deemed served as per the provisions contained in CPR 6.26 The claimant is unsure as to why the defendant refers to CPR 31.14. The claimant has not received a CPR 31.14 request from the defendant The claimant has previously provided documentary evidence as to the validity of the claim. 11. Paragraph 5 is denied as stated in the claimants previous witness statement: On the ** Jan 2014 the claimant sent the defendant a copy of the agreement and terms and conditions.The defendant wrote to the claimant in letter dated ** JAN 2014 received on ** FEB 2014. He requested copy of the agreement and statement of account pursuant to s77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974. The claimant replied on the ** FEB 2014 to inform that the agreement had been sent on the ** jan 2014 and the statement had been requested from the original debt owner and would be forwarded once the claimant was in receipt. On ** MARCH 2014 the claimant wrote to the defendant to enclose a copy of the assignment notices and statement of account. The claimant did not take any enforcement action whilst the s77/78 request had not been responded to. The claimant states that they have complied with the request. All documents have now been provided. 12. Paragraph 6 is noted CPR 16.5(4) where the claim includes a money claim a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation As stated above the claimant states that they have proved their claim in the previous witness statement. The claimant considers that the defendants draft defence has no merit. The claimant has shown that the defendant has borrowed money, how the debt has arisen, assignment, and that the debt is still due and owing. 13. Paragraph 7 is denied. The claimant is unsure as to what bar the defendant refers. The claimant has provided notice of assignment as per the previous witness statement. 14. Paragraph 8 is denied. The claimant would ask that the defendants application be dismissed and the costs of the claimant arranging an agent to attend the hearings be added to the judgement debt. 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Thanks Citizen that really is a choker