skbuncks v Lloyds ***SETTLED IN FULL***

[skbuncks]

Greetings One an All,

 

Firstly a big thankyou for everyones contribution to such a great site, its making this process a whole lot easier.

I found you via MoneySavingExpert.com

 

Had been thinking about reclaiming my charges for a while but never quite got round to doing it. The last straw came in June when I received a letter from Lloyds telling me overdraft was due to expire at the end of the month and I had 28 days to find £700 to pay it back. After trying to extent it for a further year and being refused I paid a visit to my branch begging for help. After spending over an hour going through my finance the computer said no. The GF lent me £500 and I managed to scarp together another £150 so when they terminated my OD I was still £50 in the red - they then charged me £30 in OD xs fees for this oh so wonderful 'service'. Well now is the time for revenge.

 

After a few months of the usual letters passing forth am finally waiting for Lloyds to submit there defence.

Here’s my rather lazy timeline:

1st June 2006 – Sent Data Protection Act request via email. Received a letter back about 2 weeks later which I had to sign authorizing them to debit a tenner from my account for the privilege.

23rd June – Received statements and print outs of charges. They owe me £565, was hoping at the time they wouldn’t pay up so I could take them to Court and charge them interest and low and behold to the Courts we go.

5th July 2006 – Sent First Request for repayment of charges – received usual letter thanking me for contacting them (as if) and then politely telling me where to go.

26th July 2006 – Sent the letter before action and as expected got back the same letter everyone else seems to get. Our good friend Mr Just must getting a bit tired of constantly pressing that print button. Was a bit skint at this point so had to wait till payday (25th Aug) before I could file my claim.

25th August 2006 – Filed my claim through moneyclaim website. Thanks to everyone who has provided all the information to make this process so damn easy. At start of August received a further fine of £30 for a returned DD of £8.41, marvellous. I have added this to the claim. My total now including interest is £780 plus fees of £80 giving a grand total of £860.

1st September 2006 – They’ve acknowledged the claim and intend to defend it (would like to see them try). Lloyds will be defended by, surprise surprise, Sechiari Clark & Mitchell. They now have 28 days to submit they’re defence. Kind of hope they miss the deadline as I know they like to drag things on until the last minute an the cash would come in handy for chrimbo.

[GaryH]

Hi, skbuncks - and welcome to the Lloyds forum.

 

Seems like you've got all this well under control. For a lot of people (myself included!) the first claim is/was a bit of a learning curve, but you've obviously done your homework which is great to see. You'll find there are loads of people here who are more than willing to help though, should the need arise.

 

If you had'nt worked it out already, Lloyds play dirty. They stall and bluff their way to within hours of deadlines, seemingly in a cynical attempt to put people off. They ALWAYS pay up in the end though. Their service charge arguement is flawed - and they know it.

 

Good luck, not that you'll need it.

 

Gary

[skbuncks]

Cheers GaryH all the best in your claim(s). Its trail blazers like yourself that make this easier for late comers like myself.

Lloyds seem to be the worst of the bunch, just makes me all the more determined to go up against them. As far as im concerned they can take as long as they want cos I aint giving up and every day they stall is more interest in my pocket. I dont particularly relish the thought of going to court but i've read numerous threads on this site so am prepared and no im not alone. Was going to wait until this claim was settled before starting my next one against Barclaycard but given how long the whole process is taking im gunna start it now.

[GaryH]

Thats definately the right attitude to have. Let them drag their heels as much as they want - Carry on with your life and try to forget about, safe in the knowledge that as every day goes by the interest keeps toting up! Not many savings accounts where you'd get 8%, either.

 

As for going to court, and you can never say never of course, but that is highly, highly unlikely. They have'nt taken one claim to court yet, so that says it all really. Its still prudant to plan for the worst (or best, depends how you look at it) case scenario, but to be honest, it just ain't gonna happen. History is littered with cases of companys trying to circumvent the common law prohibition of penaltys by cloaking them as services - the courts are well aware of this stratagy. IMO, Lloyds developed this defence as a damage limitation exercise to scare people, without ever having the intention of putting it in front of a court.

[skbuncks]

Well its been 28 days since MCOL was deemed to be served (30/8/06) so its Judgement time. Reckon SC&M must be very busy, either that or the defence has been 'lost' in the post. Have started to fill in the judgement form but am confused by a couple of things. The form looks a bit like this

 

Amount of claim as admitted 779.79

(including interest at date of issue)

 

Interest since date of claim

(if any)

 

Rate

 

Period from 31/8/06

 

Period to 28/9/06

 

Court fees shown on claim 80.00

 

Solicitor's costs (if any) on issuing claim 00.00

 

Sub total

 

Its the interest since date of claim line im not too sure about - is this simply the total from the spreadsheet as per today minus the total from when the claim was submitted??

 

Also once i've submitted judgement and then filed for execution can lloyds still come back and file a defence or is there a point of no return from which they have no choice but to settle?

 

 

 

[GaryH]

Yes, thats it. Or in other words, the daily rate x the amount of days that have passed since the claim was issued.

 

When you submit your application for judgement, the high likelyhood (well, almost certainty) is that SC&M will apply to have it set aside. Unfortunately the court is likely to allow this, and they will then enter a defence.

[skbuncks]

Cheers Gary. Have just logged back into MCOL to complete judgement and low and behold SC&M have now submitted there defence so judgement has been halted. To quote MCOL

 

"You are unable to take any further action online on this claim.

 

The Defendant disputes the whole amount you have claimed. Your claim cannot proceed online and will be transferred to the appropriate court for continuation. You will receive confirmation to where the claim has been transferred to shortly".

 

So I guess I now wait for the allocation questionaire :o

[GaryH]

Bugger!! Not really a surprise though unfortunately - par for the course for ****.

 

Yep, next steps the A/Q, expect it around the middle of next week along with the defence which will be full of crap about 'service charges' and 'no breach of contract', blah, blah, blah.... . A lot of people start to worry when they get the defence, but there's no need to - its all standard stuff that everyone gets.

 

If you have'nt seen them already here are the A/Q guide notes; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/11644-allocation-questionnaires-guide-completion.html. Particularly make sure you include the request for standard disclosure in Section G (J if its an N150) 'other information'. Then take a couple of copys and send one to SC&M at the same time as you send the origional back to the court. This could then spur them into offering settlement, although they seem to be dragging things out even more than usual of late, probably due to all the stays that are being ordered. Still, as I said before, just think of all that lovely interest!

[skbuncks]

Cheers Gary, im waiting with bated breath. All looks relatively straight forward

[skbuncks]

Today have received a rather rapid response from Northampton CC in the form of a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings to Sheffield CC which includes my allocation questionnaire. It also contains a copy of the defence submitted by lloyds which goes something like this:

 

1. The Defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (the bank is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN). It is admitted that the claimant has been a customer of the bank at all material times.

 

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank's charges, currently in a leaflet guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, (I HAVE SELECT ACCOUNT SO PAY £7 A MONTH IN ACCOUNT FEES) not with standing that they are an expense to the bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to providing,

-cheques

-bank statements

-the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

-debit cards

ATM's (cash machines).

 

3. By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the bank the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the bank's own funds. if the bank makes the payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. on page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that there are no charges for every day banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit.

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn with out an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

If you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go ahead?

 

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge can therefore not be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the bank's loss.

 

5. The customer is given advance warning of the charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month. and which will appear as debits on the following months statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over there agreed limit with out arrangement with the bank. if the customer fails to remedy the position; and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

 

6. The Charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

 

7. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charges are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the bank, and pursuant to regulation 6 of the unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

 

8. In the premises:

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor penalty;

8.2 the bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9. The Claimant's claim is denied in its entirety. it is further denied that the claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the bank.

 

 

 

 

Looks exactly the same as others i've seen posted here

[skbuncks]

Deadline for submitting AQ is 17 Oct. Cant see any point in waiting so will submit it ASAP

[GaryH]

Phew! Their getting very efficiant lately.

 

Yeah, as you say, its all standard stuff. Exactly the same as the rest.

[GaryH]

No, as you say there's no point in waiting. Remember to send SC&M a copy and ask for a copy of theirs. Oh, and don't forget the request for standard disclosure in the other info section.

[skbuncks]

There should be a health warning on this site - its highly addictive. If I had a penny for every thread i've read i'd be a millionaire.

 

Quick question - Is this all I need to write in section G?? Do I need to attached any other documents??

 

I believe that the case will last no longer than 1 hour.

I am respectfully requesting that my claim be allocated to the small claims track. This issue is not a complicated one; it is an issue of fact and not of law. The issue is only whether the money levied by the Defendant in respect of its customer’s contractual breaches exceed their actual costs incurred. I am happy to pay their actual costs and I am surprised the Defendant did not counterclaim for these, because I would have paid them without argument.

 

However, the continuing problem is (in common with the 100s of other cases currently being brought by other bank customers) that the banks refuse to reveal the details of their penalty-charging regime. As the banks have a fiduciary duty towards their customers, they have a duty to deal straightforwardly and in utmost good faith.

 

Accordingly, I would respectfully ask that the court in this case, not withstanding allocation to the small claims track, order standard disclosure. I understand that it is in the courts discretion to do so. I believe this would bring a rapid end to this litigation.

 

cheers skb

[GaryH]

Thats fine. No need to add anything else - the A/Q's just to help the judge decide how to allocate your claim. You'll receive directions to furnish your evidance in due course.

[skbuncks]

Cheers.

My hand writing is appalling so am gunna wait till monday to do it so can print out at work.

[skbuncks]

A/Q signed sealed and delivered. Deadline 17th October. I eagerly await lloyds' request for 1 month delay to 'negotiate' settlement.

[skbuncks]

11th Hour yet again. Received copy of [problem] A/Q today on deadline day. No surprises, usual bull****. They have requested that further action be postponed for 1 month in an attempt to reach settlement and are unavailable to attend court for a hearing for the entire months of october and november. Drag drag drag. They'll have to forgive me for not holding my breath.

Soon as i've the time i'll fire off a letter asking what they're prepared to offer - sweet FA is my guess. I would call them but judging by their lacklustre response to other peoples attempts im not gunna waste my time bothering. Besides if I do it in writing I can at least present copies of letters to the court as proof they have no intention of using their time wisely when they inevitably request a stay.

 

God but im soooo glad I dont work for Lloyds or [problem], they must be so bored by now reading/sending the same template letters day in day out.

[freebird]

this October and November malarky....I havn't actually seen ANY evidence yet of Lloyds attempting to enter into any negotiations over this last month with either myself or loads of other posters on here..so doesn't this actually make a mockery of the "stays" ? they are as I believe just more stalling tactics..and negotiations are never the requirement of a stay !

[skbuncks]

Seems to me that something needs to be done, not only are they clogging up the court system when they have no intention of defending themselves on the day but, as the courts are funded mainly through our taxes, they are also wasting our hard earned cash. God knows I pay enough in taxes as it is so its nice to know the money isnt wasted.

To all intents and purposes these delays are a burden on society as a whole. Presumably the employees of lloyds also pay taxes so by these delaying tactics they're also inadvertantly hitting themselves in the pocket. The only people who can possibly benefit from this are our good friends at ****. We ourselves of course get our 8 % bonus but the cash has to come from somewhere, no doubt from higher interest rates on loans and credit cards cos I cant see the banks or their shareholders being willing to take a hit in their profits. So ultimately, in a round about way, yet again the only people who are gunna suffer financially from this are the hard working British public.

Doesnt it make you proud to be British....

[skbuncks]

Maybe we should all buy shares in each of our respective banks and reap some of their profits for ourselves. As shareholders we could even hijack their annual conference and demand some answers to the age old question....why are you wasting our money

[freebird]

probably a sad reflection on the farce of a legal/judiciary system we have here ! look how much is wasted right through it and don't get me going on the "sentence " issue...........

 

I'm begining to think that the legal profession generally is more "loyal" to each other than even the medics.and that's being mean on medics.......

[sagaloo]

Right about hijacking their AGM - perhaps CAG should buy 1 share in each of the banks which would allow them to attend and raise the issue of wasting shareholder money defending claims that they settle after substantial legal fees have been incurred. Perhaps raise with their institutional shareholders that they are not acting in line with their corporate responsibilities!

[skbuncks]

Believe its currently £5.67 a share

[skbuncks]

Have hijacked a letter, with couple of slight modifications, to send to [problem] regarding their wish to postpone proceedings till december in order to reach settlement

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Thank you for providing me with a copy of your completed N149 Allocation Questionnaire, which I received on 17 Oct 2006. As I failed to make a copy of mine at the time of posting a transcript is enclosed. If in doubt a copy can be obtained from Sheffield County Court. For the sake of clarity I have also included a schedule of charges for your perusal in the unlikely event that one has not been forwarded to yourselves from your client, LloydsTSB.

 

Referring to the Allocation Questionnaire, I must admit to being somewhat surprised by your response to Section A (Settlement). You have ticked ‘yes’, thereby requesting a one month postponement in proceedings in order that a settlement may be reached by way of negotiation.

 

Please note that throughout the process of this claim, neither yourselves nor your client have ever given any indication whatsoever that you wish to settle this matter without the need for litigation. In fact, my previous attempts at dialogue with your client have been met with outright refusals to negotiate this matter, and on 04 Aug 2006 I received a letter from Lloyds TSB’s service recovery centre which explicitly stated that the bank had issued its final response and therefore would not enter into any further correspondence. It is for this reason that I felt I had no alternative but to seek redress by way of Court action.

 

Having said the above, I do believe that litigation should always be a last resort and would of course be happy to settle this matter without the need for a court hearing. Please be advised though, that I am completely confidant in the strength of my claim and believe that your clients charges could indeed be proved to be unlawful penalty’s which you are trying to cloak as contractual service charges. For this reason, I will only settle for the full amount of the claim, namely £595, plus interest under section 69 of the county court act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year at £192, plus court costs of £80 resulting in a total of £867.

 

In light of your indication of your intention to negotiate, I will await your communication informing me of how you wish to proceed.

 

 

Yours Sincerely.

 

A very bored customer

 

 

Copy sent to Sheffield County Court