Nat West refuse to send statements

[Its WAR]

My SAR requesting details of charges going back to 1990 was refused because the account was a limited company and as the DPA specifically covers living individuals, the information I have requested is exempt from disclosure.

 

Whats my next move?

[patrickq1]

their is a thread for companies on here (lets join forces )http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/68191-claiming-business-account-lets.html?highlight=lets+join+forces

[Its WAR]

Cant find out how to get the old statements though. Does the bank still have to supply the statements?

[freakyleaky]

The banks only have to keep records for 6 years. If they do have records going back futher then they have to supply you with them but it would be impossible to prove they had them.

But as you have said, Ltd Co's are not covered by the dpa so they don't have to supply any information!

[steven4064]

Freaky

 

They don't have to supply information under the DPA - that doesn't mean they don't have to supply it at all.

 

I think you should try this: Write to the bank and point out that they act as your fiduciary* regarding your account and that, under common law, you therefore have the right to all accounting information relating to your dealings with them and they have the duty to supply it.

 

I don't know that anyone else has really tried this approach - I only suggested it on a different thread a few days ago. BUt it is worth a try IMO. If they argue, the case law i consider might be relevant is here

 

(* fiduciary is a legal term meaning roughly the same as trustee - they are in a position of trust regarding your account and this has legal (common law) imlications.)

[freakyleaky]

Thanks for pointing out my mistake steven!

[Its WAR]

Good ideas. Thanks. Also, just because the account ended as a ltd company. It started as a partnership and at if I remember the ltd co started around 1999 so most of the years requested should be as the partnership.

[steven4064]

I don't think the DPA applies to partnerships either - it is really legislation to protect individuals.

[Its WAR]

OK. So apart from asking politely, how do I proceed. I have a hearing in October on a different matter where the bank have not supplied other paperwork, can I ask the judge to order disclosure of the statements?

[steven4064]

I think you should try what I suggested in post #5 at least as a start.

[Its WAR]

I have done that but it is little more than asking politely. It isnt backed up by legislation.

[steven4064]

I have done that but it is little more than asking politely. It isnt backed up by legislation.

But my contention is that it is backed up by common law (ie case law) - it is far more than just asking politely, it is telling them that the law requires it.

[Its WAR]

NatWest have now dumped their in house solicitors Green & Co and have instructed Cobbetts to deal with their summons against me listed for a hearing in October.

[Its WAR]

Still nothing received. Court date in 18 days. They are sueing me as a guarantor for a £5000 business overdraft and I want to have claim dismiised as no evidence has been produced. Also to counter claim the bank charges pre 2000 to set off against the £5000 if the Couirt say I still owe it. NatWest have sent no credit agreement (I doubt if there was one as it was a business overdraft....but surely they must have some kind of document) ,no guarantor agreements...but my wife and I both signed something each, but we cant find our copies either and dont know what we signed, we have received no copies of default notices and no statements. I dont know if I (as a guarantor) am a consumer and can demand the documents under the Act. But I expect the Court will expect to see something official.

 

I dont know if the hearing is a full hearing or just for directions.

 

What should I do next?

[hedgey06]

haydn, try sending them something like this - although I have to confess, this advice was given to an individual consumer as opposed to a company. However, given the short space of remaining time, I feel anything's worth a try at this stage.

[Its WAR]

Thanks hedgey,

 

Letter is now sent. The hearing is only a directions and allocation hearing, so I guess the Court will support my letter and SAR etc with an order for NatWest to comply.

 

How should I argue which track is best as the the summons Natwest have issue is a little over £5000

[hedgey06]

Haydn, have a look through here for guidance on completing the N150 http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/11644-allocation-questionnaires-guide-completion.html Can I just ask, as this is a business claim, are all of the charges pre-six years? If so, what sort of defence have Cobbetts submitted?

[Its WAR]

It is a business claim and I have previously issued a claim for bank charges and had settlement. The whole deal here is that the settlement was for less than my claim and included a gagging order. I negotiated with the bank that I would accept the offer and their terms if they allowed me to introduce one term of my own into the settlement. My term was that the bank would end all matters involving mine and my wifes connection with the business account. Our connection was as guarantors.

 

This court case is Natwest sueing my wife and I for the remaining overdraft balance.

[steven4064]

If the remaining overdraft balance has a significant component made up of charges, then you should ask the court for a stay until after the OFT case si decided on that basis.

[Its WAR]

I have already reclaimed the charges for 6 years and agreed the figure as full and final settlement. The bank sent me a cheque instead of just paying off my overdraft. The cheque was a lower amount and I agreed to accept the figure if it put and end all matters relating to me and my wife and to the business account ie our acting as guarantors. It was a full and final settlement, until that is, the bank have now sued me as a guarantor, stating that I still owe them £5500. Any further significant claim relies upon agreeing that we have not settled full and final AND me going back prior to the last 6 years. I therefore need the statements to put in a counter claim.

 

The summons so far, is not about bank charges but whether we agreed a settlement (which included the unpaid overdraft) or not. If our settlement was indeed full and final and our involvement with the business account has come to an end, then the bank should not be pursueing us.

 

Or, if we have not reached a full and final settlement. Then the bank can argue we are still liable to repay the overdraft £5500 as guarantors and we will then be able to issue or counter claim more charges (from 1991 to 2000) to of set.

[Its WAR]

The hearing is on 19th October. Its a directrions and allocation and disclosure hearing.

 

I guess I should try to get the judge to dismiss the case as I have still had no response to my requests for signed agreements etc and if he wont, then I must get him to agree that if Natwest fail to supply them upon his order, that he will then dismiss the case. How should I try to get the case dismissed first time around?

 

Or how do I tell the judge to order full disclosure and detail which documents to disclose?

 

If the case does not get dismissed, I guess I also have to argue to have the case heard in the small claims track and so reduce my risks of legal fees. How do I prepare the argument for that?

[steven4064]

You can't 'tell the judge' to do anything. You could 'respectfully suggest' that he uses draft order for diections - there are some in the "new AQ" bit in the templates library that you could modify.

[Its WAR]

Yes, I get it. How do I suggest to the judge that the claim (£5800) should be heard in the small claim track rather than the fast track.

[steven4064]

It's a msiconception that claims over £5k automatically go into fast track. HMCS leaflet EX307 gives reasons why a claim > £5k might be heard on the Small Claims Track.

 

How much of the £5800 is interest? If it is

[Its WAR]

A claim over £5000 even in a small claims track, still allows solicitor costs to be awarded if I lose.

 

This case is £5500 plus court costs. I guess about £800 of it is interest.

 

If I lose the main case but win my small counter claim (which would bring the judgement below £5000), how would that affect whether costs should be awarded against me?

 

Also, Cobbetts will ask for Standard Directions which means disclosure could be ordered 14 days before the hearing. However, I thought the banks have a statutory duty under the Consumer Credit Act and maybe elsewhere that they were guilty of an offence under the act if they fail to supply things like copies of signed Credit Agreements, Default Notices etc within 28 days of a formal demand.

 

So, how do I argue a case to suggest the Judge allow Special Directions and order disclosure within 14 days? (I have drafted a directions order) but how do I argue the point, rather than allow Cobbetts solicitor to get away with maybe 6 months longer than the CCA provides for disclosure.

 

Also, disclosure of these documents should be virtually free. If they are disclosed as part of the summons, and I lose, I bet Cobbetts will try to claim the costs of disclosing these stautory documents at £100s.