Help Pcn

[soobee]

Hello all,

 

I received a pcn which was given 4 minutes after my ticket expired. I appealed on the grounds that the 5 minute minimum observation was not used and my appeal was rejected. The rejection was dated the 18th of June and was received on the 4th July more that 14 days later. I have now received a notice to owner saying that I did not pay within the 14 days even though the letter came after that time. The information I have read states I am only allowed to appeal under certain grounds none of which meets my arguments. I want to be sure of the rules before I go back to them and argue my case. Any information would be appreciated.

 

Soobee

[green_and_mean]

The only grounds for appeal that you would probably be able to use in your case would be that the contravention did not take place. The 5 min guidance is only to allow for any time difference between the motorists watch, hand held pc and the machines clock. If you feel the machine was 4 mins fast then you will need to prove this to win the appeal, you can ask to see machine maintenance records I believe. The contravention is valid technically the second you overstay there is no statutary period of grace.

[soobee]

Hello

 

Thanks for replying, however according to hte parking attendents handbook if they have to 'observe a vehicle for a minimun of 5 minutes' he still did not do this regardless of they reasons why they do this?

[green_and_mean]

The handbook I think you refer to was produced by London Councils to help PA's do their job and is no longer used, it has no legal purpose. All councils produce their own guidelines for staff which vary, for example different councils issue on yellow lines after 2, 3 or 5 mins depending on their attitude to enforcement.

The following are the legal grounds for appeal, there is no mention of staff not following council procedure. Failing to follow procedures given to staff would be only apply if the failure to do so meant the ticket was issued incorrectly ie you were not in contravention at the time of issue.

1. The contravention did not occur
   For example, the parking restrictions were not properly signed, the vehicle was exempt from the regulations or where a vehicle was allegedly displaying a valid permit, ticket, badge etc
   
2. The vehicle was parked by someone in control of it without my consent
   
3. I was not the owner at the material time
   
4. We are a hire firm and have supplied the name of the hirer
   
5. The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
   
6. The relevant traffic order was invalid
   
7. The parking attendant was not prevented from serving the Penalty Charge Notice
    
   

[patdavies]

The following are the legal grounds for appeal, there is no mention of staff not following council procedure. Failing to follow procedures given to staff would be only apply if the failure to do so meant the ticket was issued incorrectly ie you were not in contravention at the time of issue.

1. The contravention did not occur
   For example, the parking restrictions were not properly signed, the vehicle was exempt from the regulations or where a vehicle was allegedly displaying a valid permit, ticket, badge etc
   
2. The vehicle was parked by someone in control of it without my consent
   
3. I was not the owner at the material time
   
4. We are a hire firm and have supplied the name of the hirer
   
5. The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
   
6. The relevant traffic order was invalid
   
7. The parking attendant was not prevented from serving the Penalty Charge Notice

 

I think that you are making it up as you go along - where in Heaven's name did 7 come from?

 

The are the legal grounds for appealing a NtO

 

(4) The grounds are—

(a) that the recipient—
(i) never was the owner of the vehicle in question;
(ii) had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the alleged contravention occurred; or
(iii) became its owner after that date;

(b) that the alleged contravention did not occur;

© that the vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the parking place by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner;

(d) that the relevant designation order is invalid;

(e) that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—
(i) the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and
(ii) the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice fixed to the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;

(f) that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The correct grounds for appeal for the OP is (b).

 

It is for the Council to prove that their times were correct. It is sufficient for thr OP to state that they checked the times when they purchased a ticket and when they returned to the vehicle.

[green_and_mean]

Yes I made them up and hacked the adjudicator website and posted them there to.....idiot!

Parking and Traffic Appeals Service - Grounds for appeal (parking)

 

If you took your head out of your own backside you would realise you have listed the same grounds as me worded slightly different in a different order and number 7 is for posted pcn's.

[soobee]

Errr im not sure what's going on, but am I to assume that you both agree that I should have argued that the contravention did not occur? If so surely its too late to argue that at this point also what about the Notice to owner coming after the 14 days.

 

Thanks again everyone

[dw190]

Errr im not sure what's going on, but am I to assume that you both agree that I should have argued that the contravention did not occur? If so surely its too late to argue that at this point also what about the Notice to owner coming after the 14 days.

 

Thanks again everyone

 

Councils generally reject informal appeals and the majority reject formal representations. They only take it serious when you make your reps to NPAS or PATAS.

 

I don't think any observation time is required in a P & D.

 

Check the PCN NtO and the NoR hwen you get it as the documentation is regularly non compliant.

[soobee]

Hello

 

excuse my ignorance, I dont know what the last sentence means.

[patdavies]

Yes I made them up and hacked the adjudicator website and posted them there to.....idiot!

Parking and Traffic Appeals Service - Grounds for appeal (parking)

 

If you took your head out of your own backside you would realise you have listed the same grounds as me worded slightly different in a different order and number 7 is for posted pcn's.

 

Despite the charming language in your post, what PATAS posts on its website is irrelevant. What applies is the law and the quote I posted above comes directly from the Road Traffic Act 1991. Since your item 7 does not appear within the Act, it is not a lawful ground for appeal.

 

I shall not descend to your level of language, but merely point out that if you are going to offer advice, it tends to be more helpful if it is accurate.

[patdavies]

Hello

 

excuse my ignorance, I dont know what the last sentence means.

 

NtO is Notice to Owner that the Council will send to the registered keeper if the PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) is not paid.

 

If you appeal against the NtO (on one of the ground in the Road Traffic Act as listed above) and the Council formally reject your appeal, they will send you a NoR (Notice of Rejection).

 

The content of both these documents is strictly defined in statute and the majority of Councils tend to screw up at least one of them.

[soobee]

Hello everyone,

 

I have had a reply from islingtons parking tsar and have had my claim rejected, she wrote the following:

I have investigated your case and feel that this is a validly issued ticket. If you are not satisfied with the rejection you have received from your informal appeal you do have the right to appeal again following the details on the Notice To Owner letter. Is she talking about the NTO coming after the 14 days allowed or what? and if so none of the boxes explaining that is on the back I am usually a fighter but this one is confusing me