JP vs Natwest

[jjppcc_1]

Hi All,

 

Thought I'd say hello and thanks to everyone who has unknowingly helped me through my ongoing claim against Natwest.

 

It looks as though I may be in for the long haul though as I am now just awaiting a court date, hopefully though I'll get an appropriate settlement before that though.

 

I've kept a diary of all actions I have taken since I started, I'll post it below, who knows, it may be interesting or even useful to people.

 

Cheers

JP

[hedgey06]

Hi jp, welcome on board the nat west forum!

 

It would be helpful to see a chronological list of your claim - that way we can advise you properly along the way. Sounds as though you know what you're doing to date though!

[jjppcc_1]

NatWest Bank Charge Claim, Action Diary

 

28/03/07

Account charge disclosure letter sent (recorded delivery) asking for information on all bank charges for 6 years prior to the date of the letter

14/04/07

Bank statement sheets 28-54 received ranging from 16/03/2001 to 30/09/02…

 

18/04/07

Remainder of statement sheets received, complete set now in possession from 16/03/2001 to present

 

19/04/07

Second letter sent requesting refund from bank of £1,925 + £404.37 interest, giving 14 days

 

28/04/07

Letter received from Natwest saying that they are currently investigating the claim and will respond as soon as possible (****** *******, Customer relations)

 

04/05/07

No further response from Natwest, second letter sent giving them 14 days to pay up (£1,925 + £416.79 interest) before I take them to court

 

19/05/07

No response to above letter, claim filed with www.moneyclaim.gov.uk for £1,925.00 plus interest of £423.12 and court fees of £120 (total £2,468.12) Claim number ********

 

26/05/07

Service of Claim, bank now have 14 days to acknowledge and if acknowledged they have 28 days to file a defence

 

07/06/07

As per money claim website Natwest have acknowledged the claim, they now have 14 days to file a defence

 

08/06/07

Notice received from court that Acknowledgement of services has been filed

 

18/06/07

Letter from Natwest offering £1,925 in full and final settlement to be paid directly into my account, letter also states that future charges are to be accepted unconditionally or my account may be closed, they want a reply to this within 8 weeks

 

18/06/07

Letter sent to Natwest saying that I do not accept the offer and advising them that I have already commenced legal action on 19/05/07, I did state that if they make me an unconditional final offer of £2,468.12, then I would then inform the court that the claim was settled.

 

21/06/07

A defence has been filed with the court (as per moneyclaim online) await correspondence

 

22/06/07

Correspondence received from Cobbetts including Natwest's defence (standard 8 paragraph) and a request for further information… no action required

 

23/06/07

Letter sent to Cobbetts (recorded delivery) stating that I do not need to reply to a CPR 18 request as this is a small claim, however for clarity I included a copy of the charge schedule with interest up to 19/05/07 (Date of claim)

 

03/07/07

Court papers received from Northampton County Court saying that matters have now been passed to my local County Court, also saying that AQ has been dispensed with and that I should respond to Cobbetts CPR part 18 request by the 5th July (Post mark on letter was 02/07/07!!!)

 

04/07/07

Letter sent to Cobbetts (recorded delivery, Guaranteed next day delivery) supplying all details requested, to the best of my ability.

 

04/07/07

Letter to local County Court, including a copy of the above response to the CPR part 18, and stating that I now await their further instructions.

 

05/07/07

Letter from Natwest offering £2,039 in full and final settlement to be paid directly into my account, letter also states that future charges are to be accepted unconditionally

 

05/07/07

Letter sent to Natwest rejecting above offer. Similar to letter I sent 18/06/07, but with the addition of a ‘without prejudice’ suggested unconditional settlement of £2207,which includes £1,925.00 (bank charges), £120.00 (legal costs), £114.00 (Charges since 19/05/2007), £28.00 (to cover the cost of an ‘unarranged borrowing fee’ that will be applied to my account 31/07/2007), and £20.00 (reasonable estimate for expenses), included also a full schedule of charges applied

[jjppcc_1]

Cheers Hedgey,

 

I've posted my diary above, the latest rejection took some self convincing but I do not see why I should be out of pocket lol.

 

I wrote most of the letter myself and part was from this site (Thanks to whoever wrote it), I think it's just confusing enough to put their heads in a spin, but clear enough for them to see what I want. Do you think it's worth posting it on here?

 

JP

[hedgey06]

Thanks for the diary, it makes your claim much clearer now that we've got a full picture. You're perfectly right not to be out of pocket with this claim - there's no reason why you should be. From the diary posted above, you've done everything you can to settle the account amicably with both nat west and cobbetts, so you've nothing to worry about. You've submitted the court's request for further info re: CPR 18, so you just need to sit back and await further directions. If you wanted to, you could have a look at this thread here,New---after 28 Days - Maybe No Aq!!!!!!! but well done - it's going great guns!

[jjppcc_1]

Well I've heard nothing back since my last letter to Cobbetts and have also not heard anything from the court.

 

I'm a bit gutted about not hearing from natwest about my suggested offer as it would be a lot quicker and easier for all concerned; really thought they'd go for it.

 

Can anyone tell me how long does it generally takes to be allocated a court date? or have I missed something?

 

Cheers

JP

[hedgey06]

Hi JP - unfortunately, it can seem to take forever to get a court date and there's no standard "it'll take 1 month/2 months/etc" response as it depends how busy your local court is.

 

You could try giving the court a ring - it can't hurt to enquire!

[jjppcc_1]

26/07/07

Contacted the court, they say that they are awaiting directions from the district judge and that this should take a further couple of weeks to be listed, they will be contacting me shortly after this.

 

26/07/07

Called NatWest/RBS 0845 3030 456 to enquire if they have a response to my declination of their offer and suggested settlement. Elaine says that they have received my letter and that a response will be posted today (she stated that this may only be an acknowledgement to my letter and that they had requested copies of my statements to review the case)

[jjppcc_1]

Posted a quick update above

 

JP

[hedgey06]

Looks like you've only got another couple of weeks waiting to do JP. Easier said than done sometimes............ but at least you know that you'll hear 'something' soon. Fingers crossed for you - let us know how you get on x

[jjppcc_1]

26/07/07

Evening: OFT and banks announce test case to commence, all complaints are halted. Cases already in court process are at the descretion of the individual court as to proceed or not. I need to now wait until I hear from the court, but until then proceed as normal

 

31/07/07

Letter received from Stuart Higley at NatWest acknowleging my declination of their latest offer, it says they are reviewing my claim and will respond shortly,

 

03/08/07

Letter sent to Mark Hendrick MP (Preston) via

WriteToThem.com detailing the situation and asking for any help he can give to remove stays on court cases and to lift the FSA's ruling that banks do not need to deal with complaints but can continue applying charges while the test case is in progress.

 

03/08/07

Letter sent to FSA asking them to reverse their ruling that banks do not need to deal with complaints but can continue applying charges while the test case is in progress

 

03/08/07

Letter to the OFT asking them to do what they can to reverse the FSA's ruling that banks do not need to deal with complaints but can continue applying charges while the test case is in progress

[jjppcc_1]

Just a quick update above

[hedgey06]

Wow! Nice one mate - that's what I call ACTION!!!! :D

 

On a less positive note, Cobbetts will now more than likely ask the courts to 'stay' your case (as you know!) You can apply to have this removed if a stay is granted. See here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/17065-application-removal-stay-updated.html

[jjppcc_1]

Cheers Hedgey,

 

Rest assured I will be taking immediate action as soon as anyone officially tells me my case has been stayed... I'm oddly looking forward to it.

 

Also Hedgey just wanna say thanks for the support you've shown me.

 

JP

[jjppcc_1]

Forgive me for the following rant...

 

I just read a couple of articles in the Times where people are defending the banks saying that it is we, the consumer, who is at fault

 

The first said that we should be aware of our finances and arrange for a larger overdraft limit before direct debits are applied, which he says, as an ex bank employee, most banks will accomodate.

 

Fair enough, perhaps some of us are guilty of not being organised however I personally have applied for an increase in my overdraft on several occasions and have been turned down each and every time... once I went to the branch and told them that they, the bank themselves' are going to apply a charge to my account on such a date and that there will be no funds there to pay for it, I explained that if this happens then they will then apply another charge for me going over my overdraft limit, the advisor at that time fully agreed that this is what would happen and was apparenly sympathetic but said that ultimately there is nothing they can do (Overdraft increase request declined)

 

-----

 

Another article tried to say that we were bad for steeling the banks money by continuing to spend without having the funds availiable and that the charges were fair.

 

Firstly let me put down an example of bank charges being implemented:

 

1. Bank customer has an agreed overdraft limit of £50

2. Balance of account stands at £45DR

3. Service provider attempts Direct Debit of £7.50

4. The bank does not allow the transaction owing to lack of funds

5. Bank applies a charge of £28 for failed direct debit

6. Balance of account is now £73DR

7. Bank applies additional fee of £35 for exceeding overdraft limit

8. Balance of account is now £108DR

 

In this example there has been no spending of the banks money and the bank customer still needs to pay the £7.50 for their service provider and £63 of bank charges.

 

The set of events should have simply ended at step 4

 

Even if the bank did decide to pay the £2.50 required, they have surely commited a crime by steeling £63 on top of the £2.50 they are owed.

 

If someone took £2.50 from my wallet I would be a bit upset and want it back, but I would not then simply take £65.50 from them without telling them and think that it was fair as it covered the expense of opening their bag, opening the wallet, counting and lifting the money.

 

Anyway... rant over

 

[hedgey06]

Your rant is fully undertandable - and I totally agree!

 

Some people are very fortunate that they always have funds available for DD's and SO's. Those who are able to get an authorised overdraft from banks are also very fortunate. And these people have absolutley no comprehension of the devastating financial and emotional impact that penalty charges inevitably have on the rest of us.

 

There are those of us who find that we've miscalculated our monthly budget and have gone overdrawn/over our overdrafts because we were 2p short for paying a £10 DD - incurring an additional £38 + £28 + interest! It then becomes a vicious cycle - you're down on the next month's budget due to the charges so you end up incurring even more charges.

 

Many of us end up getting an authorised overdraft to cover it - paying silly amounts of interest each month purely for the pleasure of being overdrawn due to the banks ridiculous penalty charges. Others end up taking out consolidation loans - often ending up in even more debt with crippling monthly payments.

 

Welcome to consumer banking in contemporary Britain - a system designed to ensure that the pockets of those 'who have' are lined even further - funded by those 'who have not and never will have'.

[jjppcc_1]

I just received a response from Mark Hendrick MP re my letter to him 03/08/07 see below, comments are invited.

 

10 August 2007

Hector Sants

Chief Executive

Financial Services Authority

25 The North Collonade

Canary Wharf

London

E14 5HS

Dear Mr Sants

Mr ********* ********, *****************, *********, Preston, PR* ***

I have been contacted by my constituent, Mr ********* ********, of the above address, regarding the recent decision to cease the handling of complaints over bank charges.

Mr ******** points out in his email (enclosed) that many banking customers who struggled to raise the court fees to pursue cases where they feel they have been unfairly overcharged, are now expecting an undermined delay whilst waiting for the test case to be heard at the high court, prior to the cases being dealt with. I have enclosed a copy of Mr ********’* email which outlines his concerns in greater detail.

I would be greatful if you would address the points in the enclosed email and respond both to myself and Mr ********.

Yours Sincerely

 

 

 

Mark Hendrick

Member of Parliament for Preston

Cc: Mr ********

[jjppcc_1]

Hi all,

 

Well, I got a letter from the court today saying that my case has been stayed, does anyone know of a successful application to have the stay removed as yet? I have until the 21st August to apply for it to be lifted!

 

Cheers

JP

[hedgey06]

Sorry to hear about the stay JP - I can only hope that the DJ sees sense and lifts it once they've considered your application.

 

A stay was successfully removed on one claim in the last couple of days - I'll see if I can find the link to it for you.

 

Best of luck

[jjppcc_1]

Thanks Hedgey, if you could finnd that link my confidence could be boosted because I intend to apply for it to be lifted.

 

I have prepared my application based on the templates on this site, the only part I changed was the paragraph under the heading 'In the Alternative' to reflect that it is not Natwest that have applied for the stay.

 

Does the below make sense to you? it's not much changed but don't want to drop a clanger when it's costing me my valuable 3500 pennies.

"

In the alternative

 

In view of the preceding paragraphs, if the court decides not to remove the order of a stay based on these objections, I respectfully request that the court issues the following injunctions: "

Cheers

JP

[hedgey06]

That looks good to me JP - you won't be dropping a clanger with it! Don't forget to tweak other parts in the template where necessary as well.

 

Fingers crossed for you. xxx

[jjppcc_1]

Hi,

 

I have a quickie... when applying to have a stay lifted, do I need to send payment of the £35 along with it?

 

Cheers

JP

[hedgey06]

If you're attaching it to the N244 you'll probably have to pay the £35 fee. But check with the court first (give them a quick ring) as some courts aren't charging claimants to submit the N244 with the 'stay removal' application.

[jjppcc_1]

Well, I've decided not to go ahead and apply for the stay to be lifted. Not because I don't want to, but because the deadline is tomorrow and I simply can not afford the court fee at the moment.

 

As a very pro-active person I find it really difficult to simply lay back and wait, I just want to keep 'doing'

 

 

Gutted, where's the justice?

 

As for the test case, things seem to have gone quiet has anyone heard anyhting about the current status of it? is there a date set for it to begin?

 

When will the waiver review take place?

 

Sorry I'm just down at the momnt...

 

try to imaging, if you will, a biker, free as the wind, he chooses where and when to go, dressed in black leather sitting atop his 650cc Triumph Thunderbird frantically reving the accelerator expecting to fly... but nothing happens and when he looks down he sees that his sublime machine has been clamped and when he looks up again there is a roadblock; time for the bad biker to get off his wheels and go and have a biscuit and a nice cup of tea and forget about the freedom of the open road

 

Aaaarrrgghhhhh!!!!!

[jjppcc_1]

Considering my previous post and because it is the court that have placed the stay on my claim on their own behest I have decided to write a simple letter to the court asking a simple question. I would like some feedback before I do. I don't believe that this letter would be detrimental to my case but I want it to be simple with maximum impact. The result I want is for someone to have to explain.

 

----------------

 

Dear Sirs,

 

 

I am writing to enquire about the stay that you have placed on my above referenced case.

 

I would like to know if, in your view, this contravenes my rights under the ‘Human Rights Act 1998’ as article 6 of the convention provides that

 

“1. In the determination of his civil rights… everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time.”

 

 

I have heard various estimates regarding the length of time a final decision in the OFT test case would take; these estimates range between 1 and 3 years.

 

In my personal opinion I believe 3 years to be an overestimate, and 2 years to be more realistic, however in any case the actual period of time for a conclusion to be reached is undeterminable.

 

I started legal proceedings against the defendant 19/05/2007 and believe that because of the relatively small amounts involved in my claim that any delay caused by this test case would be unreasonable.

 

If you believe that my rights under the ‘Human rights Act 1998’ have not been effected then please can I know your reasoning in this in writing? If however you do believe that my rights have been effected I would ask that you remove the stay from my case of your own behest, if this is not possible I would like to know your reasoning.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

----------------

 

Cheers

JP