Scotsuzy v HSBC/DG***WON****

[Scotsuzy]

Lateralus

I am working on all that you indicated before, my AQ has to be in by 9th July (next Tuesday) so I have redone my Schedule of Charges using the spreadsheet you suggested and have put in all charges up until now. I am now working on N244 (amending a claim), can you advise what I should put in Section A (because....) On the example you indicated is says " the claimant did not adequately particularise his claim in that he did not specify the common law and statutory provisions upon which the claim relies". Is this what I should put too ? On my original MCOL claim I put the following:

 

Unfair Bank Charges

1)Between 22/05/2002 and

21/04/2007 the Defendant debited numerous

charges from the Claimant's account

2) The charges are an unfair penalty under

the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts

Regulations 1999, because they are a

disprpoortionately high sum in compensation

compared to the cost of the purported

breach.

3) Under the law of penalties, the charges

are an unlawful 'extravagant' penalty

4) Under section 69 of the County Courts

Act, the claimant is entitled to interest

of 8% per annum from the date they were

deprived of the money. This totals

£180.54, accruing at the daily rate of

0.021% until judgement or payment.

5) The Claimant asks the court to enter

judgement in their favour for £1471.46 plus

interest, totaling £1652.00

[lateralus]

how about: " the claimant did not adequately particularise the claim in that not all charges were included and identified in the claim"

 

are you doing both the particulars and the schedule of charges - if you are doing the particulars use that hard copy N1 parti. of claim i linked in the post above. out of curiosity - how different is the total doing it properly using the advanced spreadsheet for the overdraft interest?

[Scotsuzy]

Thanks for that latty. Am frantically try to get these forms completed, can I get back to you regarding the difference between the two workings.

 

Need your help with Part C, does this sound ok:

I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my particulars of claim, this amendment is necessary to capture charges subsequent to initial submission and clarify the details of monies claimed.

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"

[lateralus]

sounds fine!

 

did you do as i suggested - ring the court to see if they want the aq filed on time with the old schedule or give you an extended deadline to get the n244 sorted and file the aq with the new schedule.

even if you get the n244 filed tomorrow - you can't guarantee that the judge will look at it and ok it and get it back to you in time to file for the 9th or is the 9th a week's extension? - if so, get that n244 in tomorrow - and cross your fingers that it will get back (if it's not you'll have to ask for another 7 days)

[Scotsuzy]

Latty

9th is original AQ deadline, haven't rung court as yet but definately will do tomorrow.

 

Have managed to get all the forms completed and also a new AQ (hopefully better that the 1st one which luckily I hadn't sent yet)

 

I really appreciate your help with all of this, will let you know what the court say tomorrow.

 

Off to bed now, been at this most of the night.... my eyes are going a bit wonky

[Scotsuzy]

Hi Latty

 

Phoned the court today, they said it would be ok to send N244 with AQ.

 

So let me quickly run this by you......I will be sending: AQ (with cheque for fee)with Section G- other information (suggesting Draft Order), copy of Draft Order, POC(N1), Schedule of Charges & N244 (with cheque for fee).

 

Do I need to send 3 copies of N244, & Schedule of charges to the court ?

 

I intend to include a covering letter along the lines of:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Please find enclosed:

 

Allocation Questionnaire

Cheque for £100 Court Fees

N1 Claim Form (Particulars of Claim)

Schedule of Claim for Charges

 

As discussed with your office I have also enclosed an N244 Application Notice for your consideration together with the appropriate fee. I respectfully request that my original particulars of claim be disregarded and replaced by the new one I have attached to my Allocation Questionnaire.

Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that may arise as a result of this.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Does this sounds ok to you and is there anything I have overlooked ?

 

[lateralus]

i think you've covered all the bases -

looks good to me-

[Scotsuzy]

Latty

Ta much for all you help, was almost packing it in yesterday but you pulled me thru and I feel confident again.............you are a star !

 

One last thing & I'll leave you in peace for tonight: Do I need to send 3 copies of N244, & Schedule of charges to the court, do I need to send anything to DG or will the court send everything they need?

 

Oh yes I forgot to add this bit last night:

 

out of curiosity - how different is the total doing it properly using the advanced spreadsheet for the overdraft interest?

 

Totals on Basic Spreadsheet: Charges =£1471.46, 8 o/o Int=£117.71-before court costs

 

New Totals: Penalty Charged=£1572.75, 8 o/o on Penalties=£194.69

Int on Penalties=£5.97, 8 o/o on Int on Penalties=£0.47 - also before court costs

 

 

Of course you have to bear in mind that the first one (done on basic spreadsheet) was done in April and the 2nd one yesterday (this new one also has further "Penalties" added since original claim)

[lateralus]

as for three copies - i would - just to be safe and go back and reread that part of that lloyds thread describing the n244 - it says - the court will send you back the approved stuff they you need to send it on to dg - recorded delivery - (then again, i've not seen one where it went in exactly with the aq - so might do to ask that nice helpful person you spoke to - if you will get copies of the particulars and schedule to re-serve dg with - that's normally the way it goes - then one further short form - listed on that link - to send the court to say you have re-served it) - you've found a friend there - that's great - ask them - they are usually very helpful.

[Scotsuzy]

Sent AQ with N244, called the court last Thursday and they have rec'd it, the girl there says that the judge will decide either Friday or Tuesday, guess I'll just have to wait & see.

[Scotsuzy]

Hi folks, hope you are all well.

just a quick update..........spoke to v nice lady (Shirley) @ morpeth & berwick c c today who advised that Bank AQ which was due in on Mon 9th has not been submitted yet.............imagine that, I am so surprsed..NOT !

 

the court will send you back the approved stuff they you need to send it on to dg - recorded delivery - (then again, i've not seen one where it went in exactly with the aq - so might do to ask that nice helpful person you spoke to - if you will get copies of the particulars and schedule to re-serve dg with - that's normally the way it goes

 

When I asked if I would get the new stuff to serve to DG Shirley advised that the court would send directly to DG, this seems a bit odd to me............what do you think ?

[Castlebest]

no thats normal the Judge will do an unless order to DG....

 

Unless you do what your told I will strike out your defence

 

just wait and see

 

pete

[lateralus]

i think if the court was due to send something to dg then they will include the new amended stuff - if you amend and the court wasn't due to send them anything - it would have been returned to you to re-serve - but i'd still send dg a copy and let them know it has been amended - "please attach and you will be hearing from the court shortly" blah, blah, blah.

[Scotsuzy]

Thanks Pete & Latty,

Will check with court again on Friday to see if they have sent their AQ and will also send DG a copy of the new stuff.

 

It is so reassuring to know that there is always someone on hand to help with all of this scary stuff.

[johnnymitch]

You can't go wrong with these two, Suzy - they're brilliant!

(Whisper)But don't tell them I said so, they'll only get 'swall heidit' (end of whisper)

[Scotsuzy]

Good evening my friends,

Had some good news today but need some advise on how to proceed.

 

Rec'd letter from DG today which reads as follows:

 

We are instructed by HSBC Bank Plc in respect of the claim you have recently issued in relation to charges levied on your account in the priod from 8th October 2002 to 20th May 2007.

 

We have reviewed your claim with our client in conjunction with the schedule of charges provided. We are at a loss to understand why you have sought to recover charges and interest from our client and additionally 8 % on the total charges and interest. Please confirm to us the legal basis of your claim in relation to recovery from our client of what would seem to be overdraft interest applied to your account.

 

Our client's interest rates are well publicised in respect to both formal and informal overdrafts. You appear to be seeking a refund overdraft interest on your account. It is, of course, a condition of your borrowing with our client that you will pay interest at teh agreed rates on that borrowing. As such there is no question of our client refunding interest when your account was in an overdrawn state.

 

HSBC is entirely confident that its charges are reasonable, are properly and fully disclosed in its terms and conditions and published price list and you must have been aware that you would incur such charges depending upon how you managed your financial affairs. HSBC is confident that it was entitled to apply these charges and that it would successfully resist your claim in the Courts.

 

HSBC is, however, mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs associated with litigation in the small claims regime. For those commercial reasons alone, and without any admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make an ex gratia payment to you in the sum of £1881.21 which is inclusive od statutory interest and Court fee.

 

Page 2

 

Payment is made in full and final settlement of your claim arising from the charges applied to your account in the period referred to above and by accepting this payment you agree not to make any other claims relating to charged for the period stipulated above. HSBS also, reasonable, requires your confirmation that you will treat this payment as confidential.

 

If you accept this proposal please sign and return the enclosed copy of this letter to us and we will arrange for a refund to be made to you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

DG etc etc

 

I accept the sum of £1881.21 in full and final settlement of my claim agaimst HSBC for the charges applied to my account in th period from 8th Oct 2002 to 20th May 2007. I agree not to make any other claims relating to charges for the period stipulated above. I also agree to keep the fact of my claim and HSBC's ex gratia payment strictly confidential

 

Signed: ............................. Dated: ..........................

[pinkduchess]

deleted post

[Castlebest]

Hiya suzy, this was written by another member in response to exactly the same letter, dont forget you are dealing with fully qualified accountants so you need an in depth reply

 

Play School Interest

 

Dear xxxxxx

 

Thank you for getting back to me. I am sorry your client is still unwilling to negotiate. From what you have said though, it looks as though your client is still confused as to what I am claiming.

 

Perhaps if I could break it down with an example this may help?

 

e.g.

 

If I was overdrawn then I would expect to be charged interest on my overdrawn balance - for the purposes of this example I'll use a rate of 20%.

 

If I was £100 overdrawn then I would therefore expect to be charged £20 interest over the course of the year. This is NOT the interest I am claiming.

 

If, however, I had incurred a penalty charge of £30 for exceeding my overdraft limit for example, my balance then becomes £130 overdrawn. At the same rate of 20% interest, I then incur an interest charge of £26, £6 of which is purely down to the penalty charge that has been made to my account.

 

That £6 is the "Interest on penalties" you refer to that is shown on my Schedule of Claim for Charges. The "Interest on penalties" on that Schedule is NOT an attempt for me to charge your client on the money owed to me. It is purely me claiming back the additional interest I have already paid out as a direct result of the unfair charges.

 

 

I hope that example makes my claim a bit clearer for you and your client. Please bear in mind that the figures used in my example were only for the purposes of the example and are in no way intended to reflect the figures used in my claim.

 

 

pete

[Scotsuzy]

When I was reading the begining of this letter I was convinced they were telling me to get lost, but got to the end and realised it is an offer letter.............YES ! ! !

My claim was originally for £1993.88 so the offer is only £112.67 short so I am quite happy to accept but must say a little dissappointed that I didn't get my day in court (sad or what ! ).

I don't want to appear greedy but would like to know if I can tell DG I willl accept their offer providing they also pay me for my prep time........ I have spent such a lot of time on line (especially on CAG) researching and trying to get as much information as possible to ensure that I didn't make any mistakes (which takes forever when your are new to all of this), not to mention the amount of stuff I have printed out ! I have read in "Teebum vs Abbey" that Teebum managed to get 49 hrs @£9.25.........has anyone vs HSBC tried for this and been successful ?

For obvious reasons I do not want to sign the bits that say "no more claims" and "will keep confidential"

[jowalshy]

Below is a copy of the letter I sent. You can add on to it that you would like to be compensated for all the time etc. Or you could go for the "wasted costs" order. I will put the link on the bottom:-

 

Ref: Your Offer of Settlement

Account: xxxxxxxx

Sort Code xx-xx-xx

Claim No: xxxxxxxx in xxxxxxxxxxx County Court

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated xx.xx, 2007 and your settlement offer of £xxxxx.xx.

I accept your offer as full and final settlement only for this claim of bank charges made on my account between xx.xx.2001 and xx.xx2007. I accept this offer without prejudice and I reserve the right to make any further claims should you apply future charges that may be considered unlawful under common law or in violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

I will be willing to withdraw my claim upon receipt of unconditional full settlement of my claim.

I am also not prepared to agree to any confidentially clauses you try to impose, unless of course your client wishes to make an offer of due consideration in addition to the amount of £5,000, in order to be afforded this privilege by myself.

I trust that you will find this arrangement acceptable.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

 

Here is the link for the wasted costs:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/85726-wasted-costs-order.html

[Scotsuzy]

Hi folks

 

Having read thru countless threads on this site I think it would be very difficult to try to claim any costs thru the courts after agreeing a settlement. It would appear that the best way to get anything would be to negotiate with DG and make it a part of the settlement.

 

I thought I would send the following:

 

Date

Dear Whoever

Ref: Your Offer of Settlement

 

Account: xxxxxxxx

Sort Code xx-xx-xx

Claim No: XXXXX in XXXX County Court

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 19/07/2007 and your settlement offer of £1881.21

 

I would be willing to accept your offer as full and final settlement only for this claim of bank charges made on my account between 08/10/2002 and 20/05/2007 (dates of first and last charge) providing you also compensate me for the costs incurred for postage, printing documents etc as well as the considerable amount of time I have spent researching and preparing this claim, £539.23 in total, please see breakdown of these on the attached sheet.

I would accept this offer without prejudice and reserve the right to make any further claims should you apply future charges that may be considered unlawful under common law or in violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

 

I would be willing to withdraw my claim upon receipt of unconditional full settlement of my claim as specified above (Total £2420.44).

 

I am also not prepared to agree to any confidentially clauses you try to impose, unless of course your client wishes to make an offer of due consideration in addition to the amount above, in order to be afforded this privilege by myself.

 

I trust that you will find this arrangement acceptable.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Page 2

Details of costs incurred

• 4 letters sent by 1st Class recorded delivery at £2 each to cover postage and stationary is £8

• The total cost of preparing the document bundles for this claim in triplicate is £24.78.

• paper cost of £20.00 (500 sheets per pack)
  printer ink cost of £15.00 per cartridge x2 = £30.00
  travel cost in fuel to and from post office 2 miles each way x 4 at £0.40 per mile is £3.20

• Time spent researching, preparing letters, document bundles and case notes from start to finish is at least 49 hours. Total at £9.25 per hour is £453.25

The above totals: £539.23

Can anyone advise if this sounds ok and has anyone else rec'd costs using this method

[lateralus]

i don't understand suzi - are you going to accept their offer of 1881 when you are asking for 112 more than that - but only if they give you the wasted costs of 500 added on?

 

why not go for the whole thing - wait out the claim to its most probable conclusion - a full settlement and then do the Wasted Costs order after - which is the way the thread advises.

[Scotsuzy]

I know what you mean Latty but I thought the courts might frown upon me knocking back the offer when it is only £112 short.

 

BTW the £112 is made up of a couple of charges I included in my claim which have turned out to be ATM charges (3 x £1.75) I included these not knowing what they were for (only said "charges" on my statements) at the time of claiming I wasn't aware of how to find out what the charges were :o (I know now of course). The rest I can only assume is the interest on interest which Pete has provided the reply letter for.

 

Do you really think I should refuse the offer and carry on to court stage if they don't offer full amount (less the 3 ATM charges) and as you say then go for wasted costs order.

 

Really just wanted it over and done with but part of me wants to take HSBC all the way

[lateralus]

if the offer letter doesn't specify - then i think you'd be well within your rights to write back and ask how they came to that figure - and then if you agree - accept it and if you don't reject it. then tell them again how much you think the claim is worth - including any interest, fee paid and charges - let them tell you how they decided on that figure without an out an out rejection.

[Scotsuzy]

Have now typed up a letter to DG giving the explanation re interest on penalties that Pete advised above and saying that hopefully they will now offer a full settlement (less the 3 ATM charges - they told me about these in their offer letter). Also asked that they clarify the offer figure they made. Closed the letter by saying that "Hopefully when your client has reviewed the figures (in light of the explanation regarding the interest on penalties) I will hear from you again with an offer of full settement and we can settle this claim without involving HM Courts any further"