Blair Oliver and Scott/Bank of Scotland ** Compensation awarded by FOS **

[reallymadwoman]

I've written back to BOS asking for a legible copy of the agreement, but it looks like this one is OK - the confusion over the APR is because the number of payments and amount aren't legible, but working it out from the statements etc it is probably correct.

Moral - I'm not going to be prodding them over the other agreements, just leave them in default until they get their act together.

[debtsurvivor]

Just subscribing RMW, I have a couple with BOS it will be good to see how you are getting along. Good luck

[reallymadwoman]

Can anyone tell me if one of the prescribed terms (number and amount of payments) being slightly illegible is sufficient to render an agreement unenforceable? Specifically the number of payments could be thirty anything and the amount could be £68.??

 

I suspect the copy supplied is a print of a scanned copy, so if they no longer have the original they're not going to be able to supply a better copy. If I ask to inspect the original agreement at a local office, are they likely to agree if they have it?

[kennyparkroad]

i suppose you could argue that its not a full legible copy.

 

dont know how far that would get you though.

[reallymadwoman]

It's now a month since I wrote to Bank of Scotland asking for a legible copy of the agreement and querying an admin charge and some missing payments and, as expected, I've not had a reply.

However I've just checked my credit report and they are still updating the records. Can they do this whilst the account is quite clearly in dispute, especially as the balance they are quoting is missing 6 payments that I have made?

[kennyparkroad]

be careful

 

its taken me nearly a near to get a copy of my agreement, only because they kept asking why i wasnt paying, i sent the same copies of letters 9 times over!

 

so they may have it, but the longer it takes them the better for you, i know have them looking into the interest which was wrong as a last hope

 

dont poke them too much, just let the time keep on ticking.

[reallymadwoman]

Agree entirely - I've learnt my lesson about poking with big sticks. I guess I'll just have to put up with the inaccurate balance for now.

[Mike220359]

The thing is it is against the banking code that they are updating dredit files when an account is in dispute. However since they are not a bank they are not signatories to it according to the banking code website. However, in order to get money from 'customers' they have to be authorised by the FSA, gues what they aren't letter going off to the FSA now.

 

Mike

[reallymadwoman]

I guess I must be bored this afternoon because I've drafted yet another letter to BOS. They are well into committing an offence over not supplying CCAs, having only supplied an illegible copy of one of the four I asked for.

 

I've decided I've got nothing to lose by poking them again so I've sent yet another letter saying that as they haven't responded to my request for a legible copy (sent a month ago) I assume they don't have it so give me my money back and stop processing my data or else.

 

Best case scenario is that I do get all my money back, worst is that I'm back in exactly the same situation as I was before I found this site and I will be paying their £5 a week for the next 4 years. Of course what I would settle for if they really don't have the original agreement, and the copy I have was almost certainly printed from microfiche, is my secret for now.

[Jeff2000]

Hello RMW,

 

 

Subscribing!

 

 

I am in a similar position with Bank of Scotland / Blair Oliver Scott!

 

Sent CCA request to Bank of Scotland ages and ages ago. Guess what, that's right, no reply! I was paying an agreed amount to Blair Oliver Scott, but I have now decided to cease payments. Started getting letters saying my agreement was in arrears! Wrote back pointing out that the OC was in default of a CCA request and informed them that I would not be making any more payments until such a time as the OC complied. I have now received a "last chance before action" letter from Blair Oliver Scott!

 

Just like you, all of my letters to them have not been signed for. I think I will copy out all my letters that I have sent, plus the CCA request and send them all in one envelope guaranteed delivery. After that I will ignore any more letters from them!

 

I shall keep you informed of any further developments.

 

 

Best wishes, Jeff.

[reallymadwoman]

Don't forget to keep all the correspondence from Blair Oliver and Scott as evidence as they shouldn't be pursing you as they are in default, and don't let them say they don't know as they are part of HBOS group.

I've also sent an SAR to Bank of Scotland, and all they've sent so far (also well over the time limit) is a few statements here and there. I'm a bit tied up with another bank at the moment, but as soon as I have a few minutes to spare I'll be dealing with that problem too.

[Jeff2000]

Hi all,

 

 

After receiving a "last chance letter" from Blair Oliver Scott, as mentioned in my above post, I have now received yet another "pay up now" letter!

 

You have to laugh really, don't you?

 

 

Regards, Jeff.

[reallymadwoman]

After my lengthy experience of dealing with Blair, Oliver and Scott, I think I can probably write their staff handbook for them

 

1. When an account is first received, use every means possible to obtain a phone number. The stinking debtor's number is obviously ideal, but any number will do - daughter's mobile, friend, neighbour, bloke who lives up the road with the noisy motorbike.

2. When a number is available, set system to call every 30 minutes. When phone is answered do not accept any excuse for the stinking debtor not to speak to you. Being dead, out of the country, in hospital etc are not good reasons.

3. Totally ignore anything the stinking debtor says. Stick strictly to the 'if you don't pay we will murder you and send your children into slavery' script. If they have not agreed to pay 90% of their income after 2 calls, you are sacked.

4. In the unlikely event that you are not able to get a phone number, set the system to send 4 letters a day, chosen at random from the database. When the stinking debtor phones, go to 3.

5. When payments are received do not acknowledge them in any way. Set system to phone every 10 minutes and use the 'we need you to increase your payments' script. If it takes more than 1 call to get 100% of their income, you are sacked.

6. If the stinking debtor has the cheek to write to you, file under 'B' for bin. Do not waste time reading stupid complaints when you could be phoning someone.

7. If a complaint is sent to the Ombudsman, deny everything. If they won't go away provide the responses you sent to all the stinking debtor's letters. Retreive all the letters they sent from the file.

8. If the stinking debtor does something that is not on this list, go back to 1 and start again.

 

And to think they used to frighten me!

[reallymadwoman]

Just being doing a bit of filing of my own, and not under 'B' for bin.

 

Present situation is

 

July - CCA requests for all 4 accounts followed up by S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request.

 

Account 1 - 12+30 up - sent letter saying no CCA so give me my money back or else. BOS replied with what appears to be a print out of a micro fiche copy of agreement. Prescribed terms are illegible. Asked for legible copy. Also statement of account missing quite a lot of payments, therefore inaccurate. No response so yet another no CCA so give me my money back letter sent. Nothing received under SAR, 40 days were up 2 weeks ago.

 

Account 2 (the biggie) absolutely nothing from CCA request or SAR. Leaving well alone for now, especially as I know it will be unenforceable as it definitely does not have my signature on it.

 

Account 3 - turns out this is a bank account not a credit card as I thought. Some statements supplied but nothing else - i.e. nothing about default notices. Balance incorrect as loads of payments missing - about 2 years worth. I think my first line of attack will be this 'account' was missold because a) it appears on a loan agreement, not clearly separated, no indication that it was optional and b) I believed it was a credit card and used it as such. There was no paying in book supplied, no means of making regular credits to or debits from the account, statements look like credit card and ask for a minimum payment. I believe it was 'disguised' as a bank account to avoid being subject to the CCA and to avoid being subject to rules on joint liability for credit card payments. If that one fails I'll go for the horrendous charges which will just about clear the balance anyway. Or I might do both at the same time.

 

Account 4 - is definitely a credit card. No agreement has been supplied nor anything else other than statements which appear to be complete. Payments for the last 2 years are missing and there are horrendous charges again. I'll leave this one for now as the charges only go back to 2005 and with the other two plus another credit card with a different bank, I think I have enough to do at the moment.

[reallymadwoman]

I am seriously concerned. This morning I received what can only be described as a polite request from Blair Oliver and Scott about account 1. Of course the account is in dispute so they shouldn't even be 'requesting' a payment, but no threats? No warnings of dire consequences? Are they slipping, or have they employed someone with common sense? Filed under 'E' for evidence.

I've also received a letter from Bank of Scotland acknowledging my complaint. I can only assume they mean the letter I sent 39 days ago (I thought they were supposed to acknowledge a complaint within 5 days?) which wasn't actually a complaint but a letter before the letter before action if that makes any sense. They say they are investigating and will contact me within 4 weeks.

According to the LBA that I followed up with, they have until Saturday to make an offer so looks like I'll be drafting the particulars of claim over the weekend.

[reallymadwoman]

I might wonder if BOS are deliberately trying to confuse me. I've had another acknowledgement of my complaint, they've returned my follow up letter to me in a handwritten envelope with no comment, and they've replied (twice, in separate envelopes) to my original letter all on the same day.

 

I would like a second opinion on one or two points.

 

S 61 © of the CCA 1974 states

'... document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible'

 

Would a document in which the print is so small that you need a magnifying glass to read it be readily legible?

 

Also, if the defendant asks, is the creditor obliged to produce the original agreement in court, and what would/might happen if they didn't?

[reallymadwoman]

Also, from CC(Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, section 2

 

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed

agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety

under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily

distinguishable from the .

 

I've just asked my daughter to have a go at reading this agreement as her eyesight is spot on perfect. Even in sunlight in the garden, she was really struggling and only managed one word in three, yet BOS say the print is the same size as the original.

[Jeff2000]

I might wonder if BOS are deliberately trying to confuse me. I've had another acknowledgement of my complaint, they've returned my follow up letter to me in a handwritten envelope with no comment, and they've replied (twice, in separate envelopes) to my original letter all on the same day.

 

I would like a second opinion on one or two points.

 

S 61 © of the CCA 1974 states

'... document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible'

 

Would a document in which the print is so small that you need a magnifying glass to read it be readily legible?

 

 

 

Also, if the defendant asks, is the creditor obliged to produce the original agreement in court, and what would/might happen if they didn't?

 

 

Hi RMW,

 

 

IMO if you cannot read something properly, then it cannot be "readily legible"! Also, I think you should be able to read it without any aids other than spectacles if required.

 

Next point, also JMO, but I think if the document wasn't readily legible, then you would have a good case to ask the judge to see the original. If the judge agreed, I think they would be given a reasonable amount of time (say 28 days or so) to produce the document or the case could be struck out!

 

 

Best wishes, Jeff.

[reallymadwoman]

Thanks Jeff - that's what I thought too but I always feel more comfortable with a second opinion.

I'm in the process of drafting a letter suggesting that they allow me to view the original at their local office. Apart from the very small print there are one or two other problems that I can't deal with adequately without a decent copy. If I'm right, legibility is the least of their problems as I believe there are a few serious (like making it totally unenforceable) problems with this agreement.

[ncf355]

My experience thus far with my CCA cases jhas been such that the small claims hearing order has always stated original documents will be brought to court

 

I would however point you to the fact that more often than not the bank/ccp instructs a local barrister at v short notice (worst case so far being Friday afternoon for a Monday morning hearing)

 

Judge erred on the side of caution stating this was not the barristers fault

 

(I agree, but then it is also not my fault when they have made a defence making clear they are fully aware of the circumstances and they have had many months to prepare)

 

I think this needs action, the only way I can see through it is to apply to the court for the judge to make an order that the original document is produced on the day and fax, email (etc) copies will not be acceptable - not however sure how to go about this

 

- anyone??

[reallymadwoman]

I think I might be covering myself by asking to see the original now. If they don't make it available and I have to do the court thing, I can ask again for the original to be provided, several times in big bold letters if necessary. I think if I then showed the judge all my correspondence (this is about the 5th letter on the subject that I will have sent) he's not going to be too happy if they turn up without the original. At the very least he's going to say that court action could have easily been avoided if they'd produced the goods earlier. And I'm not talking a huge amount of money here. If the case did go against me, I could pay it fairly easily in a lump sum. So I think it's probably worth the risk just to get a definitive answer on the original/copy in court question. I'll probably need it for a couple of other cases which involve much larger sums of money.

[clutchingatstraws]

The majority of my CCA requests have been answered with obvious copies of copies or copies of microfiches.

 

I always request to view the original at their nearest branch to me stating that I will resume payments if I am satisfied that it meets the provisions of the CCA1974 as an enforceable CC Agreement.

 

I'm sure that most judges take a dim view of the idiots who use his/her court as a CCA viewing chamber.

[Jeff2000]

My experience thus far with my CCA cases jhas been such that the small claims hearing order has always stated original documents will be brought to court

 

I would however point you to the fact that more often than not the bank/ccp instructs a local barrister at v short notice (worst case so far being Friday afternoon for a Monday morning hearing)

 

Judge erred on the side of caution stating this was not the barristers fault

 

(I agree, but then it is also not my fault when they have made a defence making clear they are fully aware of the circumstances and they have had many months to prepare)

 

I think this needs action, the only way I can see through it is to apply to the court for the judge to make an order that the original document is produced on the day and fax, email (etc) copies will not be acceptable - not however sure how to go about this

 

- anyone??

 

 

Hi,

 

 

Page 91 of:

 

Small Claims Procedure: A Practical Guide by Patricia Pearl, states:

 

"A direction to bring original documents to the hearing is made in all cases."

 

(My bold lettering and underline).

 

 

Regards, Jeff.

[pelham9]

I have only just read this thread so this post is somewhat late in the day. Sorry

 

The %APR is not required in CCA agreements but the actual rate of interest charged is. Your agreement does not show the interest rate so is not enforceable. But you will say that the %APR 'is' the interest rate and your bank will certainly take this view. But you will be wrong and they will be dishonest.

 

The %APR is an expression to show the 'total cost of borrowing' and as such it includes all compulsory costs (fees etc) as well as interest. The formula perscribed by law to work it out is complex when there are fees but simple with interest only loans. The %APR is an approximation to one decimal place and is intended to allow customers to compare the cost of borrowing between different lenders. Its main use is in advertising. It is NOT the figure that will be applied to actual loans as the approximation is too coarse. What should show in your agreement is an annual or monthly rate which must be to at least two decimal places. Except very rarely the annual rate of interest does not EQUAL the actual annual rate charged.

 

For what it is worth I have calculated the %APR for your loan as 13.2%. This assumes that £447.28 of interest calculated over 39 months is pre-loaded to the £2000 and divided by 36 to arrive at the paymants. Challenge BOS as to how they get 12.9%. They will almost certainly say that thet have used the perscribed formula but insist on the actual figures so that we can check.

 

As an aside it is almost invariable for banks to charge more than the %APR would suggest is due. For %APR of 12.9 they will actually charge 12.949% because 'this is an %APR of 12.9'. They have managed to persuade many of us that 12.949 EQUALS 12.9 which is mathematics gone mad. The trouble is that we are so used to comparing loans by %APR that we forget that it is an approximation and cannot be applied to the nitty gritty of actual interest calculations. The banks do everything to encourage ths attitude as you will find if you question them - they certainly train their customer service staff to us %APR inappropriately.

[reallymadwoman]

Hi pelham,

The interest rate is one of the things I want to check, but the figures I posted earlier typed up from the copy agreement did involve a certain amount of guesswork as that particular part of the agreement is almost entirely illegible. The APR quoted is legible however.

Can you supply a reference for the regs that specify interest rate not APR as I think I'm probably going to need them eventually?

Thanks.