SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[andrew1]

.... but is it just not enforceable whilst that DCA has it? - I quite agree it would be most pleasurable to tell them to sod off, but they are in the habit of not doing that - if the debt is sold to them they effectively own it ( dead or alive). It is only unenforceable because the DCA has failed to provide - if someone is daft enough to pay good money for it without the backup thats their problem but it doesn't change the situation - you would still have to send a CCA to them denying any debt owed to them and asking them for the same documents - a bore I also agree. This is only my opinion I am not totally sure about this but I seem to recall one of the Mods discussing it before.

[gizmo111]

I am not sure but Joncris is quite up on this aspect of debt (as are many otehrs)- I don't know how to link a post - any chance you can bring this to his attention?

[JonCris]

Seems the knowledgable answers have stopped now things are getting more interesting. Especially about Laiste getting taken to court over it!

 

He's not the only one & the result is there's plenty of knowledgable advice around. Hit on a few more that have started simular threads then you might find them

[JonCris]

.... but is it just not enforceable whilst that DCA has it? - I quite agree it would be most pleasurable to tell them to sod off, but they are in the habit of not doing that - if the debt is sold to them they effectively own it ( dead or alive). It is only unenforceable because the DCA has failed to provide - if someone is daft enough to pay good money for it without the backup thats their problem but it doesn't change the situation - you would still have to send a CCA to them denying any debt owed to them and asking them for the same documents - a bore I also agree. This is only my opinion I am not totally sure about this but I seem to recall one of the Mods discussing it before.

 

Send this with your £1 PO

 

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. I require you to supply the following documentation.

 

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for running account credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee, PO Serial Number xxxxx.

 

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

 

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Whilst I can't guarantee it they usualy bugger off after that

[gizmo111]

That is what usually happens but what about the non - compliance and criminal act and then passing it on to another DCA do we have to go through the same rigmorale- or as I think that it is unenforcable until they provide docs and therfore they cannot pass it on to be collected, and any new DCA can be told to sod off. (In a polite firm clear manner of course)

[JonCris]

That is what usually happens but what about the non - compliance and criminal act and then passing it on to another DCA do we have to go through the same rigmorale- or as I think that it is unenforcable until they provide docs and therfore they cannot pass it on to be collected, and any new DCA can be told to sod off. (In a polite firm clear manner of course)

 

Yes but until you follow the "official" complaint route to the authorties they are going to keep selling it on. & no matter how much they try & wash their hands you must keep involving the original creditor by sending the copy correspondence whilst advising that they will be included in your complaint to the authorities

[miniad]

Right, hope someone can help. I have sent 3 CCA requests to Intrum Justitia, Moorcroft and Metropolitan. The 12 working days elapses tommorrow, however my debt management plan payment to them will go out today for them to receive tomorrow.

 

I have had no response from any apart from Metropolitan saying they would ask the original owner of the debt (first direct) to send it out.

 

If I receive nothing in tomorrows post can I call up my DMP and cancel all three payments to each DCA?

 

As I understand it they then have 30 calender days to produce the agreement and I will have to continue payhing them. If they dont I report them to trading standards and the debt becomes unenforcable. Can I then claim the payments I have allready made back from the DCA's.

 

Can the debt then go back to the original owner and the process start again?

[JonCris]

Right, hope someone can help. I have sent 3 CCA requests to Intrum Justitia, Moorcroft and Metropolitan. The 12 working days elapses tommorrow, however my debt management plan payment to them will go out today for them to receive tomorrow.

 

I have had no response from any apart from Metropolitan saying they would ask the original owner of the debt (first direct) to send it out.

 

If I receive nothing in tomorrows post can I call up my DMP and cancel all three payments to each DCA?

 

As I understand it they then have 30 calender days to produce the agreement and I will have to continue payhing them. If they dont I report them to trading standards and the debt becomes unenforcable. Can I then claim the payments I have allready made back from the DCA's.

 

Can the debt then go back to the original owner and the process start again?

 

When you sent your s78 demands you went into dispute over the debts at which point you should have stopped all payments until the matter is resolved.

 

However as there is a DMP acting on your behalf matters could be slightly different. Do they know of your actions?

[miniad]

Yes they know of my actions. and advised me to cancel next months payments if I hadn't heard anything by the 15th Sept. I dont think she quite grasped the concepts of what I was doing.

 

 

Will paying them this months installment have any bearing on the outcome?

[JonCris]

No other than you gave them enough time to comply

 

I would advise that you confirm your telephone discussion with your DMP in writing. Then send them copy correspondence (past & present) to keep them in the loop. Because when you succeed the ramifications are that the fees you have paid them which only came about as direct result of your financial problems created by the money lenders will need to be recovered.

 

That's a fight for another day

[miniad]

Yep will do. The DMP is with CCCS so I'm not paying them any fees directly, all my payments go to the creditors. However I will give them another call just to make sure they are fully understanding everything, and then send them all the correspondances.

 

 

So, lets say the 12 working day period elapses with no response. I just sit tight and wait for the 30 calender days to elapse? Then take steps to write the debt off.

 

I presume this will entail writing to the DCA's and lodging the complaints against them via trading standards.

[Bev77]

Hi all,

 

I hope someone can help. I have 2 loans with Lloyds, with 2 different loan account numbers (obviously). I sent 1 letter off regarding the 2 accounts and included 2 Postal orders for £1 each, 1 for each account, on the 11/08.

 

I've received a copy of an agreement for 1 of the loans, but not the other. The 12 days will be up this weds. Assuming I do not receive anything by then, do I assume that they do not have a copy of it, or do I need to send another letter with another £1 PO? If they haven't used 1 of the PO's, should they have sent it back with the first agreement or at least with a letter that says they cannot find the agreement? Should I have sent them seperate in the first place?

 

Really hope someone can help me!

 

Thanks in advance

 

As I said above, I've received 1 copy of 1 loan agreement but today I've received a letter saying thanks for your letter, but you will need to ask your branch for copies of your statements. There may be a fee to pay for this service. It also quotes both loan account numbers and my bank account number.

 

I'm confused? Are they confused or something? The CCA request refers to the loans only, and I didn't ask for statements, only a copy of the original credit agreement.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

[JonCris]

Write back telling them what your saying here & that your CCA s78 requests still needs to be complied with by (date)

[Bev77]

Cheers for that JonCris, I will do that. I may need some help with drafting the letter though...I'll see how i get on.

[Bev77]

How's this sound?

 

Thank you for your letter dated 22nd August in reply to my Consumer Credit Act request. In your letter you state that I will need to ask my branch for copies of my statements. I did not ask you for copies of my statements, but for copies of my original loan agreement. I already have 1 copy, for loan account number XXXXXXXXXXXX, but I still require an original copy for loan account number XXXXXXXXXXXX.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request. I have already enclosed a payment of £1.00, which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days, of which there are now only 2 working days remaining.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

[JonCris]

How's this sound?

 

Thank you for your letter dated 22nd August in reply to my Consumer Credit Act request. In your letter you state that I will need to ask my branch for copies of my statements. I did not ask you for copies of my statements, but for copies of my original loan agreement. I already have 1 copy, for loan account number XXXXXXXXXXXX, but I still require an original copy for loan account number XXXXXXXXXXXX.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request. I have already enclosed a payment of £1.00, which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days, of which by the time you are in receipt of this letter shall no doubt have expired. I would also remind you that if after 30 days you have still not complied with my request you sahll be guilty of a criminal offence

 

In addition I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I await your advices at your earliest convenience

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Hows that?

[Bev77]

Sounds good, much better than mine!

 

Thanks!

 

Bev

[jazzyb]

Any thoughts would be aprecciated. Lowell Finance have failed to produce any documents under the CCA request and 30 calendar days have now passed. I have never paid them any money, nor have they defaulted me ( the defaults is from the original creditor, which is 6 years old at the end of the month). Do i need to send lowell a letter telling them that i will not be making any payments as the dept is unforceable with no paperwork and that i shall be reporting them to TS or shall i not write at all and just report them and let TS sort it out.

Thanks

[JonCris]

Best time to do it is after the 6 years is up Along the lines of "as I have never acknowledged the debt which is now time barred I will not seek a court order that you comply with my my CCA request."

 

"Please note that as my request is now over the time prescribed in law (let the buggers look it up for themselves) your failure now constitutes a criminal offence".

[jazzyb]

Thanks Joncris, i shall do that;)

[JonCris]

Best time to do it is after the 6 years is up

 

Along the lines of "I have never acknowledged the debt which is now time barred.

Furthermore please note that as my CCA 1974 (s 77-79) request is now over the time prescribed in law (let the buggers look it up for themselves) your failure now constitutes a criminal offence rendering any action by you unenforcable.

However I will not seek a court order in that regard on the clear understanding that this matter is now closed.

 

On 2nd look suggest slightly different wording as above

[barney2002]

Hi guys, just wanted to clarify a couple of points and explain my situation. This thread is quite long and 'jumps' about a bit.

 

I make regular payments to Intrum Justicia in regards to a loan I could not keep up with from about 12 years ago (if not more). The original loan was with Mercantile Credit (Barclays I think) for £10,000 :o and I now pay only a nominal £35 a month back. At that rate it will take me about another 20 years to pay back. I have been paying this small amount for years now. The current balance is approx £8000 :o as charges and interest were stopped years ago.

 

My questions are these:

 

1. Am I right in understanding that I can request a copy of the original loan agreement with Mercantile from Intrum and that Intrum has 12 working days to comply? - using the DP Act letters and sending my £1.

 

2. If they cannot supply this, they then have until 30 calendar days to respond after which the loan is no longer payable to them as they cannot prove it?

 

3. Can I then ask them to write off the remaining £8000 (ish)?

 

4. Can I then request back all the money I have ever paid to Intrum and to Mercantile?

 

The only thing that concerns me is that this may jeopardise my current repayment plan with them. Every now and then I get a letter asking to increase my payment but as it is on a S/O they cannot amend it but I do increase it by £1 or so every year or two just to show willing.

 

Any ideas?????

[JonCris]

Cos They As Of Yet They Cannot Find It, I Have Given Them 2 Months In All To Comply To The Data Protection Act, After 2 Phone Calls, The Latest Today, They Informed Me They As Of Yet Cannot Supply Me With An Original Signed Agreement, I There Fore Said That They Could Not Prove There Was A Debt, They Agreed That Would Be The Case, I Then Told Them I Would Write And Give Them 7 Final Days And Then Reliquish All Responsibility Ect To The Loan If They Did Not Produce A Signed Agreement, Can I Do This, And How Do I Word It.

Thanx

 

Hi Mrsbaconbuttyman

 

Pleeeeese stop giving them more time. Each time you do that you prejudice your position (they just might find the docs). Also I know Intrum & it is very unlikely that they would repeatedly extend the same courtesy to you.

 

Write along the lines of "I have never acknowledged the debt which is now time barred. (if you have delete this bit)

 

Please note that as my CCA 1974 (s 77-79) request is now over the time as prescribed in law (let the buggers look it up for themselves) your failure now constitutes a criminal offence rendering any action by you unenforceable.

However I will not seek a court order in that regard on the clear understanding that this matter is now closed.

 

I await your written confirmation of the above at your earliest convenience

[bitbob]

Help please with interpretation of this part of the CCA act.....

 

CCA 1974

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum(/running some) credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor;(b) the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the debtor but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due; and© the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due.

 

.................

 

(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)— (a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Sorry would post link but it needs an Athen password.

 

The bit that bothers me is the (if any) in red. Does this imply that if there is no executed agreement then subsection 1 has been complied with?

 

Also i cannot find any reference to requesting the original agreement, i assume this is catered for in 'shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it,' as it would refer to the original agreement.

 

Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

 

Mike

 

PS I am helping someone with a CCA request, sent letter requesting under s77 with 1 pound, recorded del. Received a reply today thanking for the payment of 1 pound to account and demanding further payments. They completely ignored the letter and credited the pound to the account. Should i write once again pointing out thier 'mistake' or simply wait until the month is up and inform them that they have not complied with the CCA request. I don't want to give them another oppurtunity but i am not sure if they could use the fact that they 'misunderstood' the request and it was not clarified as a defence in court.

[JonCris]

1st Don't worry about the if any. If you signed an agreement then they must produce a copy.

 

2nd Yes write to them in simple terms pointing out that you have made a CCA request & if they fail to respond within the period as required by law they WILL be commiting an offence. Also mention that whilst the request remains unresolved by attempting to continue recover of the alledged debt they are already in breach of the CCA 1974 Section 1 (6)

 

Don't repeat what the laws says let them look it up whcih they probably won't it'll make their heads hurt. Probably so much so that no one will deal with it & the 30 days will go by before you know it............of course I could be wrong & it might find its way to someone with a brain cell