Ollie vs Lloyds**WON**

[olliebollie]

Hi All,

 

I received a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings in the post yesterday. Its says the claim is being transferred and Court of transfer is Oxford before a Judge Murdoch Sitting at Northampton County Court (does this mean I will have to go to Oxford or Northamptom??) Also they have crossed out the part where the AQ is required. Not sure what I have to do now so any help and advice would be gratefully received. I'm a bit stressed as both my parents are currently in different hospitals so dashing from one to the other and just panicing I'm not going to have time to get this right as claim being going on since Nov 06 and don't want to mess up now and lose.

 

Is it better to put the whole of the Banks defence on here (its quite lengthy!!) for people to see and advise.

 

Many Thanks in advance

[PPMAN159]

It might be an idea to post the defence so that advice can be given.

[Suzy75]

Hi Olliebollie don't worry about the AQ part being crossed out there are alot of other claims this has happened with mine included, i think it's because of the amount of claims there are now they are dispensing with some of the ''paperwork'', but if you check out some of the threads on here i'm sure it will ease your mind that there are others out there whose claims are similar to yours!!! My claim was also transferred from Northampton to Plymouth and i had a 9point defence from Llyods which having read through others threads seem's to be the norm from Llyods so don't panic!!!! I've got to the court stage now and have a hearing on 20th June, Unfortunately it seems that Llyods enjoy pushing these claims to the bitter end!!! Hang in there, there is plenty of advice on here for you it just takes a bit of reading to find it sometimes!!! Hope i've helped a little, Suzy:D

[olliebollie]

Thanks PPMAN159.

 

Here we go!!

 

1. The defendant Lloyds TSB Bank PLC is a bank whose registered office is 25 Graham Street London.

2. This defence is served without prejudice to the defendants contention that the Statement of claim is insufficiently particularised and embarrassing. The Defendant reserves the right to plead further to the statement of claim once they are sufficiently particularised.

3. The defendant will object that the particulars of claim in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the Defendant and makes no allegations against the Defendant as to why the defendant should be liable to the claimant for the amount claimed.

4. The particulars of claim do not comply with the Civil Procedure Rules (sylised particulars do not constitue compliance) as (among other things) it makes no serious attempt to comply with CPR 16.4 (!) by setting out a concise statement of the facts and they do not identify the account in question that appears to form the subject matter of these proceedings or indeed show how the sun of £xxx.xx is arrived at and the particulars of claim are too vague. the statement of claim shows no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim.

The claimant should therefore be ordered to amend or substitue its particulars of claim setting out the claimants case in plain english and to set out the basis in law and fact for her claim as there is no pleaded basis for the claim itself. The claimant should give full particulars of the Bank Account and the charges she is seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of charge and why the claiment in each case she alledges it is a disproportionare penalty and thus unlawful.

6. The defendant should then be given permission to fiel and serve an amended defence in accordance with CPR 16.5 setting out ist case in plain english.

7. For avoidance of doubt, by opening an account with the bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. The bank is entitled s part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the bankscharge, the customer ackowledges that the charges re incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to providing- cheques, banks statements, direct debit and standing orders, ATMS.

8. by maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the bank, the cusotmer may avoid most if not all the charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the banks own funds. If the bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the bank explains that there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit. When you agreed on overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. When you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply. If you want to use a service that we havent listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give the go ahead.

9. There is no breach of contract, the charge cannot therefore be a penatly, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the banks loss.

10. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed, statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following months statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

11. The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied taht they are unlawful.

12. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contractm, and on each monthly statement. The charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the bank, and pursuant to regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

13. In the premises:

13.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty

13.2 the bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable

13.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

14. The claiments claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the claiment is entitled to the sun or to any sum from the bank.

 

 

PHEW!!! Thanks again for any help on this one.

[olliebollie]

To Suzy75 - sorry been typing up all the defence.

Thanks for support. Its just worriyng that I'm not going to get all the right paperwork for the bundle together. Just dont want to make a dope of myself if I do have to sit in front of a judge. I've taken it this far and don't want to give up at the last (hopefully!!) hurdle.

[katesage]

Ollie Bollie

 

Ive just received exactly the same defence from LLoyds for my case, apart from paragraphs 2,3 and 4,6 regarding your POC. Did you use the template from here? If so ignore those paragraphs! If not post up your POC here so we can check it's ok.

Its a template defence document and should not cause you any concern. It is based on the Service Charge and No Breach arguments, both of which are extremely weak.

 

Check it's signing date btw;)

 

Good Luck:)

[olliebollie]

Hi Katesage.

No didn;t use the template from here? Only found this web site after claim had gone in!! I just entered a claim via MCOL when no response form Lloyds and to be honest they didnt have much space on there to put details and presumed (perhaps a bit naive) that the court would then request statements etc to show dates and amounts etc.

Hopefully I haven't mucked it up now by lack of details/evidence etc.

 

So what should my next move be?? Should I sent copies of my charges to the court now or wait until I have a date? Is there anything else solid that I can include in my POC.

[broke dave]

Olliebollie,

Also had transfer of Proceedings yesterday. Your case has been transferred to Oxford by Judge Murdoch. I'm in a similar position as you with having to visit my Father-in-Law. Could do without this stress as well.

Was also worried about the AQ being crossed out but looks like the norm now. Just hope they can start moving the whole process along faster. Down to my last few quid and chasing them for £3,700.

Good luck and let me know when you get a court date.

broke dave.

[katesage]

Ahhhhhhhh:|

 

OK, Can you type up the exact wording of your Particulars of Claim that you used on the Moneyclaim online form.

 

There is a possibility, depending on how good or bad the POC is that you may have to amend your claim.

 

Dont worry too much, its reasonably straightforward to sort out. But it will need prompt attention.

[olliebollie]

Thanks Dave,

 

Yes its all just come all together at the same time and just getting sooooo stressed! Feel awful worrying about my case when both parents are in hospital but don;t want to give in now.

will keep you posted on date.

[olliebollie]

Katesage.

Will go on to MCOL and copy it onto here. God now I know how crap my claim was I'm am worried. But as you say can be rectified.

Thanks for your advice again.

Bev (olliebollie)

[katesage]

Hi Bev

 

Ive got to pop out for a couple of hours, if you could post up your POC I'll check it this afternoon and tell you how to sort out if necessary.

 

[olliebollie]

Hi Kate,

When I issued the claim via MCOL I used the template (see below) given on Martins Money Tips. I obviously changed the areas in brackets with my details i.e name, date and amounts claimed etc. As I had already sent all the details of my statements with amounts claimed to Lloyds (twice!) I didnt think this would have to be added. Also (probably repeating myself sorry!) there was not a lot of room to write details in. (feel a right numpty now!!) HELP!!!

 

 

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

1. Between the dates of [insert dates of first and last charge] the Defendant applied numerous default charges to the Claimant’s [This means you because you are the person claiming the money] bank account.

2. The charges applied constitute an unfair penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which state: "A term is unfair if it requires any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation". The amount charged does not reflect the cost of the breach.

3. Under the law of penalties, the charges are an unlawful ‘extravagant’ penalty. Referring to the case of 1896, Wilson v Love, a charge is a penalty if it does not reflect an item’s true cost.

4. Under the County Courts Act 1984, the claimant is entitled to interest at a rate of 8% per annum from the date they were first deprived of the money to the date of this claim. This amounts to a total sum of [insert amount of interest], continuing to accrue at the statutory daily rate of 0.021% until judgment or earlier payment.

5. The Claimant therefore asks the court to enter judgment in their favour for the sum of [insert total charges] plus interest, amounting to a total of [insert total charges plus interest].

[katesage]

OK Ollie

 

The POC you have used are OK(ish) and would not in themselves justify a strikeout (IMVHO)

It seems that the fact you did not send a schedule to be attached to your claim may be what is causing the issue.

Have a read of this thread because a/ it shows our POC (which is good) and b/ post 2 gives information about sending in the schedule.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/34887-5-money-claim-line.html

 

You need to send the schedule of charges to the Defence and the Court asap, with a covering letter.

 

Hopefully then all will just progress as normal.

[olliebollie]

Thanks Kate,

 

So can the Schedule of charges just be sent in on a normal A4 sheet and not a particular form? I have aslo created a sdreadsheet of the charges - would it be best to include this as well?

And should the covering letter just apologise for the non-inclusion of the shedule when i raised my claim. Just not sure what wording to use in the covering letter.

As you mentioned I send 1 copy to the Oxford court (where it has now been transferred and 1 to Lloyds solicitors???

( I knew I should have taken up Law when I had the chance!!)

[katesage]

Thanks Kate,

 

So can the Schedule of charges just be sent in on a normal A4 sheet and not a particular form? I have aslo created a sdreadsheet of the charges - would it be best to include this as well? They are the same thing, send a copy of the spreadsheet schedule of charges.

And should the covering letter just apologise for the non-inclusion of the shedule when i raised my claim. Just not sure what wording to use in the covering letter. Yes, amend letter as per link I sent you earlier.

As you mentioned I send 1 copy to the Oxford court (where it has now been transferred and 1 to Lloyds solicitors???Yes

( I knew I should have taken up Law when I had the chance!!)

 

 

[olliebollie]

Thanks Kate for your time in this.

 

You are an absolute star - with all the worry about my parents at the moment its good to have some help to set my mind at ease and make this process all the bit easier. I' m not normally so dumb - just not had a lot of sleep and a bit stressed.

 

So once I have sent this off do I just wait for further correspondance from the court as to what happens next?

[BARTY]

Hi

Have a read of this:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/47344-claim-too-vague-defence.html

 

Good luck!

Barty:)

[olliebollie]

Barty,

 

Thanks. Will take a look. Have sent a letter and schedule of charges to the court and to LLoyds solicitors this morning so now waiting for what happens next.

 

Will update on here.

[olliebollie]

Hi All,

Just updating with latest and some guidence would be appreciated.

Have now received court date for 10th August in Oxford.

Letter says:-

It Is Ordered that:

1. The Defendant's do file and serve skeleton legal arguments at least 21 days before the hearing.

2. Claimant at liberty to reply at least 7 days before the hearing.

3. Only 30 minutes has been allocated forn this hearing for this case. If either party considers this insufficient, the court must be notified at least 14 days before the hearing.

 

HELP!! - So am I right in presuming that (as states in para 2) that I have to have my bundle at the court by the 3rd August???

Thanks for any replies.

[nicsussex]

You've got it!

[olliebollie]

Nicsussex,

 

Thanks. So have got a few weeks to prepare bundle then!!

Now the fun begins!!!

[olliebollie]

Hi All,

 

I know this is a dumb question but is there a certain order that the paperwork should be in when putting the bundle together?

I have had a look on the forum about what should go into the bundle (and thats confusing enough!) but not sure in what order.

 

Thanks for any help.

[fzrkitten]

Hi ollie,

 

Thought I'd pop in on your own thread and say hi. Glad I could help earlier on Christinajanep's thread.

 

My court date isn't until 7th Sept, but I had excellent directions from the judge, and they wanted my bundle in 14 days from issuing the directions, hence the panic to get them in for today. I think there are 3 of us all had to get them in to different courts today, so we are now all awaiting the outcome. When does your bundle have to be in by?

 

Everyone will help you as you know, if they can!

 

BW,

 

Fzrkitten.

[olliebollie]

Hi Fzrkitten,

 

Welcome to my thread, I haven't been on here for ages as sooooo busy so have felt a bit detached from it all but nice to chat to people again in the same position.

 

I have to have my bundle in 7 days before my court date - which makes it 3rd August, so got to have it ready by last week in July to get it off in time. It seemed like I had ages when I first got the Notice Of transfer letter but now it is coming up fast and getting paperwork organised. I have printed off most of the bits I need just getting it all together. Got to print off the T&Cs as not done those yet and a couple of other bits.

Thanks again for the advice on page numbering all the info - I presume its Ok to write the page numbers on???

Anyway thanks for advice again. It all helps. Hopefully will be on here a bit more now lifes calmed down a bit.

 

:D