Black Horse hire purchase agreement

[JonCris]

Dotty I think you should do an HPI search yourself as I suspect that as the dealer was going bust your vehicle may be the subject of more than one HP agreement. It's happened before where a seller has collected multiple finance payments.

 

As TS are waste of space I suggest you involve the police & report your

[dotty]

Hi JonCris

I called the AA today about their vehicle checks & was told I'd be charged for each chassis number data check. Told her the situation & she said it was extremely strange & that the vehicle could have been cloned??

It's interesting what you said about the multiple HP payments. Sounds like a real possibility - is that the same kind of thing as cloning? Is a ringer when it has been an insurance write off but then sold on again?

She suggested the DVLA - who I'll call Monday - so I'll see what they say. Last time I called them I hadn't had the confirmation of the 3 numbers being registered to one plate - so hopefully will get somewhere with them.

It's driving me nuts I can't figure out what's been going on.

Thanks for replying.

[JonCris]

Can you scrutinise your finance agreement & check the precise details against the registration documents & let me know the result by PM if you wish

 

Ringing or cloning is when a write off is purchased with registration docs then an equivalent vehicle is stolen & the ID from the write off is swopped to the stolen one.

[dotty]

Hi there

I have a motorhome that I've recently discovered has irregularities on all the paperwork. VIN number on the log book is different to the VIN number on the Black Horse hire purchase agreement & the VIN number on the actual vehicle is different as well.

three VIN numbers altogether.

On talking to Black Horse they thought it was a typo but all three numbers have come up registered to my registration plate!!

BH told me to write a letter but I've been nervous to do so without knowing where I stand legally with this.

But BH haven't been in contact for weeks!!

 

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

 

dotty

[powelll]

Sorry, not my area at all ( I don't even drive!! ). Hopefully someone in the known will be along soon... good luck

[patdavies]

Hi there

I have a motorhome that I've recently discovered has irregularities on all the paperwork. VIN number on the log book is different to the VIN number on the Black Horse hire purchase agreement & the VIN number on the actual vehicle is different as well.

three VIN numbers altogether.

On talking to Black Horse they thought it was a typo but all three numbers have come up registered to my registration plate!!

BH told me to write a letter but I've been nervous to do so without knowing where I stand legally with this.

But BH haven't been in contact for weeks!!

 

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

 

dotty

 

How can you have three VIN registered to your VRM?

 

The only VIN 'registered' to a VRM is the one listed on the V5. Anything else would be some sort of private database and irrelevant.

 

How different are the VIN?

[dx100uk]

Hi there

On talking to Black Horse they thought it was a typo but all three numbers have come up registered to my registration plate!!Any thoughts would be very welcome.

 

dotty

 

how do you know this?

have you been in contact with DVLC?

 

dx100uk

[Notty]

Hi there - thanks for replying - I know it's a very odd one!

 

The actual vehicle has two locations (under bonnet on a metal plate & on wheel arch) both are the same & end 178

 

The log book or V5 ends 117

 

The black horse agreement ends 1178

 

Black Horse has the log book number on their paperwork for my account.

 

They put the VIN numbers through experian (where all vehicle details are registered).

 

So the log book came up registered to my registration plate & the chap doing the check said the other two numbers were typing errors 'it happens'.

 

He said he would put them through experian also to prove this - had they been typos nothing should have come up at all.

 

But on entering the vehicle VIN & their agreement VIN - both also came up as vehicles registered to my one registration plate.

 

I just can't work out what has happened. I think I was fobbed off with a duff vehicle, the dealer thought I wouldn't notice, the dealer has gone into liquidation & would explain why parts were always 'on order' but never arrived.

 

I can't find out where this leaves me legally.

 

Thank you

 

dotty

[Planner]

Dont think you will get very far. Wants to stop them just emailing you saying, "actually we dont have any in stock, sorry". Ive orderd things online before, payment has beeen taken and they get back saying they have ran out and refunded my money.

[Notty]

Planner what are you on about?

[patdavies]

Legally, the VIN plate and the V5 must have the same number. Mistakes do happen occasionally, but this could also be a 'ringer' - although if both the vehicle and V5 VINs point to the same VRM on Experian this is unlikely.

 

You will have to contact the DVLA and get the V5 changed to that on the vehicle - otherwise you may have problems when you come to sell.

 

The V5 is what matches a VIN to a VRM. Someone looking at your vehicle at this moment could see the mis-match and not unreasonably assume that you had simply swapped the registration plates from a near-identical vehicle on to the actual one in in front of them, and that they were not looking at the vehicle actually listed on the V5.

 

The other mis-matches are on Experian's data base, which is private, and irrelevant. All that really matters is the V5.

 

I certainly wasn't aware that a private company like Experian can have all vehicle details registered and would think that it would be impossible for them to obtain them all. Why would they bother when the DVLA has the definitive (and hopefully identical) database?

[Notty]

I appreciate your help but I still cant find out where I stand legally. I have already contacted DVLA but I do not want to change the number on the log book. At the end of the day the vehicle has been a nightmare since day one. Everything has more or less dropped to bits on it. We cannot get spare parts as the company no longer exists and any warranties we had are no longer of any use. What I want to do is return the vehicle with no further cost to me. That is why I want to know where I stand legally. What with all of the problems with the actual vehicle and now the VIN numbers do I have a realistic chance of getting Black Horse to take it back? Any help, please, would be so appreciated as I need to know what I can say in my letter to Black Horse?

[dotty]

Hi thereI have a motorhome that has three different VIN/chassis numbers. And, all three VIN/chassis numbers are registered to my registration plate.Black Horse themselves have confirmed this - I have to put a letter together but don't know where I stand legally on this.Can I insist the vehicle is returned & all payments I've made refunded??Any thoughts would be great.dotty

[calvi36]

At this stage I would say no. Have you finally found out the correct VIN from DVLA.

[gizmo111]

5 threads merged on the same subject please stick to one.

[patdavies]

At this stage I would say no. Have you finally found out the correct VIN from DVLA.

 

I would disagree. As the vehicle does not match the V5, Dotty/Notty is paying finance in a vehicle that he/she does not have, and never has had, possession of.

 

The vehicle sat on the drive (or wherever) is not the vehicle that he/she is paying for.

 

The different number in the agreement with Black Horse is likely to be a typo and not particularly relevant - as the VRM would act as sufficient identification to make the agreement enforcible. The dealer would be at fault acting as agent for Black Horse.

 

The VIN is attached to the vehicle at manufacturing and is the final and definitive identifier for that vehicle. When the vehicle is registered for use on the roads with the DVLA, they will issue a VRM that relates to the vehicle. The VRM isn't permanently 'locked' and unchangeable as you can transfer VRM between vehicles (cherished transfers); but there is a 'lock' between the VIN and the current VRM as indicated on the V5.

 

Experian are showing that all the VINs are 'locked' to the VRM - this is not possible under any circumstances - at any one time, only one VIN can relate to a particular VRM - the only database of consequence here is that of the DVLA and that is the one that the law recognises.

 

A 'ringer' BTW, is when a stolen vehicle is fitted with another's VRM and sold as the vehicle on the V5/VRM - which seems to be what has happened here. The people to be approached in the first instance would normally be the dealer - but they are conveniently no more. This only leaves the finance company liable.

 

I think, in truth, that the only way forward with this is to involve the Police (although getting them to pay attention in between mouthfuls of doughnut might prove fun:eek:). If the OP does this, he/she needs to be aware that they may well lose the vehicle permanently (as it isn't his/hers) and be left with a fight with the finance company.

 

There has been an error, deliberate or otherwise. but the OP does not have the vehicle that has been purchased on the V5/VIN.

[dotty]

Hi - Yes I've spoken to DVLA four times now but get nowhere.

I spoke to a motorhome dealer for some 'impartial advice' - it seems not many are happy to talk. But as he said, the details the DVLA have are basically what they have been provided with, by the now liquidated dealer I purchased from. He said it's just a carry on of the 'error', accidental or not.

 

I've been in touch with Trading Standards again & they are sending the details through to enforcement, as he believes this is more a criminal matter!! Not sure what they will do.

 

The DVLA have on file the VIN which is showing on my log book/V5.

This is also the VIN Black Horse have on their records.

 

Experian hold all vehicle details apparently for the purpose of HPI checks.

I'm going to get a HPI check done on the actual vehicle VIN I have.

 

A motorhome dealer kindly checked the numbers I have on their HPI system;

The log book/V5 VIN - shows up with my motorhome model, reg & as having finance on it.

The HP agreement VIN - shows up with vehicle details, model, reg & as having finance on it.

The actual vehicle I have standing outside VIN - shows up with no vehicle details, my reg, no finance.

 

I'm wondering if I have an insurance write off. It came to light after I purchased this thing that the vehicle hadn't been one of their ex-rentals like we were told - but had come from another company they sold vehicles to for hiring out. The only reason I found out was when I was washing it The sun was shining & I could just see the name of this other company on the back - where they had removed the vinyl lettering!!!

 

You're absolutely right PatDavies, when you say that I've never had possession of the vehicle on the V5. The vehicle I do have doesn't actually have any documentation at all. The documentation I do have there is no vehicle for.

 

Many thanks for your help - it's great to hear other opinions on this - it's driving us up the wall.

 

dotty

[dotty]

Hi - Yes I've spoken to DVLA four times now but get nowhere.

I spoke to a motorhome dealer for some 'impartial advice' - it seems not many are happy to talk. But as he said, the details the DVLA have are basically what they have been provided with, by the now liquidated dealer I purchased from. He said it's just a carry on of the 'error', accidental or not.

 

I've been in touch with Trading Standards again & they are sending the details through to enforcement, as he believes this is more a criminal matter!! Not sure what they will do.

 

The DVLA have on file the VIN which is showing on my log book/V5.

This is also the VIN Black Horse have on their records.

 

Experian hold all vehicle details apparently for the purpose of HPI checks.

I'm going to get a HPI check done on the actual vehicle VIN I have.

 

A motorhome dealer kindly checked the numbers I have on their HPI system;

The log book/V5 VIN - shows up with my motorhome model, reg & as having finance on it.

The HP agreement VIN - shows up with vehicle details, model, reg & as having finance on it.

The actual vehicle I have standing outside VIN - shows up with no vehicle details, my reg, no finance.

 

I'm wondering if I have an insurance write off. It came to light after I purchased this thing that the vehicle hadn't been one of their ex-rentals like we were told - but had come from another company they sold vehicles to for hiring out. The only reason I found out was when I was washing it The sun was shining & I could just see the name of this other company on the back - where they had removed the vinyl lettering!!!

 

You're absolutely right PatDavies, when you say that I've never had possession of the vehicle on the V5. The vehicle I do have doesn't actually have any documentation at all. The documentation I do have there is no vehicle for.

 

Many thanks for your help - it's great to hear other opinions on this - it's driving us up the wall.

 

dotty

[erinneo]

Dotty have read your thread with interest as I too have a motorhome. I am wondering if it might be worthwhile contacting the 'converter'. As you know motorhomes are built on a particular chassis eg Fiat, Peugeot, Mercedes etc. Then the 'converter' builds on the actual motorhome bit. The converter will be eg Lunar, Autotrail, Elddis, Swift etc. It may be worth a call to them to try and establish some more info re your vehicle. Also the converter will probably be able to direct you to another dealer to sort out all the problems. Most if not all m/homes have a 3 year chassis and converter warranty. You do not need to go to the liquidated dealer for this. Think though that maybe you should start writing letters to Black horse etc and askink for a full explanation as it soundsas if you are getting fobbed off big time. It is easy for a company to ignore phone calls not quite so easy if you have paper trail. You may already have done this. Also someone must have details of all insurance write offs. Sorry I do not know about the legalities. Try asking your question on one of the motorhome forums also. Please PM me and I can possibly advise on converter etc. I have not heard of any converter going out of business.

[dotty]

The saga continues:

Black Horse arrived with a flat-backed truck to lift the motorhome last week. Luckily my mum arrived back to speak to the man. I think it was only because of the way it's parked it didn't get lifted, tree & front of house being the problem!

He asked if he could go in the house to get the piece of paper he'd put through the door! Translation: Open the door so I can swipe the keys!!

Wouldn't have got far as we've now got a flat battery.

 

They hadn't received the letter from me but to be honest I haven't sent it because I just don't know what the options are with this.

Trading Standards want to involve enforcement. Not sure about this - as someone said they could take the motorhome. But Black Horse say if the police take it or TS enforcement they will just contact them.

 

But surely if a vehicle has no legal documentation why would they give it to Black Horse.

 

Went to Citizen Advice Bureau - a complete waste of time that was.

 

I'm just going round in circles. Sent the letter to Black Horse - but not heard anything back from them yet. Wondering if we should move the vehicle while it's all in dispute. Worried they can send in bailiffs.

 

dotty

[dotty]

I HAVE RECEIVED THE N24 NOTICE OF RETURN OF GOODS HEARING AND N1 CLAIM. JUST RETURNED FROM HOLIDAY AND ONLY HAVE UNTIL 9TH AUG TO EITHER DEFEND OR HAND OVER GOODS. BELOW IS THE SAGA OF BLACK HORSE AND MOTORHOME. IF I SAY I AM DEFENDING THE CASE AND THEN FIND OUT I HAVENT GOT A CASE CAN THEY THEN SUE ME?) I AM AT CRISIS POINT AT THE MOMENT BUT DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO NEXT.

SHOULD I FILL IN THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF SERVICE AND THEN ARGUE IT OUT.

 

 

Just to give you a brief idea I purchased a motorhome on HP under a non regulated agreement. After a year of battling with the dealer over lists & lists of problems that were never dealt with I called the dealer to make sure the parts had definitely arrived in the workshop & was told 'sorry we've gone into liquidation'. (No wonder they never repaired us)

It was on taking the vehicle for it's first mot a mix up with the chassis number came up, was told by the garage nothing to worry about. Told by another motorhome dealer to go home & check my paperwork very carefully. I did & it appears I have three different chassis numbers (all registered to the one registration plate)

1 chassis number on the metal plate under the bonnet

1 chassis number on my Black Horse HP agreement

1 chassis number on my V5 log book

 

I've been to CAB, trading standards, DVLA called 6 times can't get anyone to help me. I've been in dispute with Black Horse now for 18 months they have only sent one letter to say it's nothing just a typing error & that they wish to recover the vehicle. They have arrived with a truck to get it but we told them it was in dispute & they left.

During a telephone call with an account manager he was adamant that it was a typo - so to prove it he said he would look up each individual chassis number & being a typo only one would come up on the register with Experian (they apparently hold all vehicle details) - All three numbers came up registered to the one vehicle license plate. He said there was something very wrong it was very odd & he couldn't do anymore to help me & he also stopped calling me. I have not made any payments either for 18 months.

Out of the blue I've received a N1 from the court & a court date with a Notice to recover the goods.

[JonCris]

dotty 1st from what you say you definitely do have a case but you must contact the court now explaining you are in dispute & have just returned from holiday & request a continuance to give you time to prepare or better still instruct a solicitor

 

Also they may not agree but it's worth asking BL for an extension of time which if agreed they will help communicate to the court

[dotty]

Hello

I'm feeling in a panic. To bring this whole mess up to date. Contacted Stephensons, filled in all paperwork & sent back a complete list of everything that has happened, all problems with vehicle, the 3 chassis numbers etc. Haven't spoken to the solicitor yet as I assume they will look through everything I've sent & decide whether or not there is even a case!

 

The court date is Friday, a week tomorrow with a bank holiday in between - I'm feeling really worried & dreading going in to the court.

I do qualify for legal aid, surprisingly, even though I'm self emplyed I'm not earning enough at the moment, so thank goodness for that.

 

Received a letter today from the solicitors who are acting for Black Horse & they sent a copy of the original agreement & the last letter they sent 7th March saying they would start proceeding.

 

Interestingly though on the signed copy of the origimal agreement there is no VIN at all - but on my agreement it's not signed or stamped and the VIN is on there. So I'm concluding from that either Black Horse are being crafty & blanked it out or the dealer I bought the vehicle from in 2004 (who went into liquidation 2005) has done something crafty.

 

Do you think the court date will go ahead or do you think the solicitors could delay it. Is it like the bank charges where they won't turn up?

 

Thank you, will write again soon.

 

worried dotty

[dotty]

Hello

This whole thing is going from bad to even worse.

Received a letter on Saturday morning from the solicitor & basically says about the sales of goods act (which has been discussed here previously)

that it would all have to be proved via numerous inspections & expert reports, is lengthy and also very expensive.

 

Surely having a motorhome with three different chassis numbers is wrong - and proves that something very suspect has gone on.

The chassis number on the black horse agreement is a combination of the V5 & vehicle chassis numbers

 

Not feeling very hopeful at all now. I'm dreading phoning on Tuesday - court date is Friday! - I just don't know on what grounds I have a case.

There has been no mention about court date on Friday.

 

Can you please tell me what I should do?

 

dotty

[dotty]

Is there a time limit if I return the motorhome under breach of SOGA?