Fined because disabled badge was upside down

[pampam]

Below is a copy of a letter I sent re a parking ticket.

I received a reply today containing a photo of my dashboard showing the badge displayed photo side up. (wrong way I know but Robert doesn't)!

The letter states that I must pay the fine imediately or I will not have the option of paying the reduced rate.

It goes on to say that I can appeal again if I think I have a case.

Any veiws or advice on this appreciated

Cheers

Pam

15th January 2007

Re Parking Ticket PCN Number *********

Dear Sir/Madam

I returned to my car this morning to find I had been issued with the above numbered parking ticket. I am writing to appeal against it.

I had Mr Robert Latus with me. He is a disabled badge holder. He has Downs Syndrome and also suffers from Epilepsy and Alzheimer’s disease.

When we parked in ******* Lane I let Robert put the Disabled Badge and clock on the dash board. He thinks this is a very important thing for him to do as he knows the card belongs to him.

I returned to the car at approximately 11.30am and put Robert back into the front seat. By the time I got into the drivers seat and noticed the Parking ticket Robert had taken the cards off the dash board.

I do not know why the ticket was issued. I can only presume that either the card was facing the wrong way or that the time on the clock had been altered by Robert. However, when I checked the clock later it was pointing to 10 am.

I have enclosed a copy of Roberts Parking Card Serial number ********

I do hope you will reconsider this fine under the exceptional circumstances. I am quite willing to bring Robert into your office if you would need to see his disabilities for yourselves.

Yours faithfully

[pampam]

Below is a copy of a letter I sent re a parking ticket.

 

I received a reply today containing a photo of my dashboard showing the badge displayed photo side up. (wrong way I know but Robert doesn't)!

 

The letter states that I must pay the fine imediately or I will not have the option of paying the reduced rate.

It goes on to say that I can appeal again if I think I have a case.

Any veiws or advice on this appreciated

Cheers

Pam

15th January 2007

 

Re Parking Ticket PCN Number *********

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I returned to my car this morning to find I had been issued with the above numbered parking ticket. I am writing to appeal against it.

 

I had Mr Robert Latus with me. He is a disabled badge holder. He has Downs Syndrome and also suffers from Epilepsy and Alzheimer’s disease.

 

When we parked in ******* Lane I let Robert put the Disabled Badge and clock on the dash board. He thinks this is a very important thing for him to do as he knows the card belongs to him.

 

I returned to the car at approximately 11.30am and put Robert back into the front seat. By the time I got into the drivers seat and noticed the Parking ticket Robert had taken the cards off the dash board.

 

I do not know why the ticket was issued. I can only presume that either the card was facing the wrong way or that the time on the clock had been altered by Robert. However, when I checked the clock later it was pointing to 10 am.

 

I have enclosed a copy of Roberts Parking Card Serial number ********

 

I do hope you will reconsider this fine under the exceptional circumstances. I am quite willing to bring Robert into your office if you would need to see his disabilities for yourselves.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Any ideas on what I can do now?

I am raging about this.

The people who make the decisions on these apeals should try caring for Robert for 24 hours.

I think they would then realise that checking if a card is displayed the right way up is the least of my worries!

Please help, I am so mad that if I send a letter back to them it could end up being quite rude.

Thanks

Pam

[Naarjtie]

If you want the ticket dropped and a full apology, then go to the local and national newspapers. This is one of those stories that editors love, and having done things like this in the past, I'm certain you could get into The Sun and your local paper. Probably a lot easier (and satisfying) persuing it that way than taking it up with the council.

[pampam]

Thanks for your reply

I have sent a cheque in payment of the fine as I only had 14 days to get it at the reduced rate of £30.

I enclosed another letter with the cheque asking them to reconsider. If they don't refund I am seriously thinking of taking your advice.

Will keep you posted

Cheers

Pam

[Naarjtie]

Best of luck.

 

I hope you do persue press coverage on this, as it will bring the council back to their senses and stop this happening to other people like yourself.

[diskmandave]

pampam, if you send an appeal and it is rejected you usually get the 14 days reduced payment time re-instated! If you pay you've admitted the contravention and the case is closed for good.

 

I do hope that they see sense and return your payment though.

 

Good luck - Dave.

[jed104]

Pam,

 

You should get the discount period reinstated for 14 days from the day you recieved their letter, but this is only standard practice. Theres nothing in law which says the discount must be extended any longer than the original period. In fact the local authority doesnt even have a legal obligation to reply to your objection. The reason they do is for customer service and correspondence deadlines and mainly to sort out whether penalties will be upheld earlier without involving representations or an adjudicator thus saving admin costs.

 

As for the contravention I agree with the decision to issue a penalty, attendants cant check whether the badge is stolen or expired if it is face down. If this wasnt enforced the level of abuse would rise and you would be more hard pressed to find a parking space even in restricted areas. Therefore although you may not see it the rule is in place for your benefit.

 

I recently forwarded a nationwide proposal to stamp the words 'front' on the other side of the badge, which was accepted for a reminder. Although I cant stress enough that its important to read the booklet that comes with the badge, where it clearly tells you how to display it.

 

best of luck with your appeal,

 

Jed - Objections Assessor

 

I can only speak for the city I live in but the 1st contravention is usually cancelled with a warning should the appellant provide a copy of their valid disabled badge.

[ladybird17]

Hi, I've been reading this thread with interest. Last year my Mum was very ill in hospital. One morning (very, very early) received a call from the ward sister, saying it was probably best if we went quickly to the hospital. I had the horrible job of having to call my elderly Dad, I then went & picked him up & we sped to hospital. On arrival,I just threw my Dad's disabled permit on the dashboard. We arrived on the ward about 5 minutes after my Mum passed away. On our eventual return to the car, (and you can imagine how we were feeling) I had a ticket as the permit was upside down. I of course appealed. Did I win?....did I hell. Under normal circumstances I would have been so incensed I'd have taken it further, but that's not really the stuff you're in the mood to take on when your Mum's just died. So I really wish you ALL THE LUCK, and i hope the b**tar*s can show some some compassion. Keep us posted.

[Naarjtie]

Pam,

As for the contravention I agree with the decision to issue a penalty, attendants cant check whether the badge is stolen or expired if it is face down.

 

From the title of the thread, I figured the badge was upside down - not face down. Therefore the badge could still be read, albeit with slightly more difficulty.

[jed104]

From the title of the thread, I figured the badge was upside down - not face down. Therefore the badge could still be read, albeit with slightly more difficulty.

 

Photo side up is face down Naarjtie, sorry. This issue really gets the point over that it isnt clear enough that the driver must read the department of transport booklet supplied with the badge. It is the driver or in actuality the keeper of the vehicle that is responsible for parking lawfully.

 

Ladybird: your case does concern me. The local authority I work for would have cancelled your penalty regardless on the first contravention. If anyone even mentions a relative passing away we would cancel, proof is not necessary with us because we dont feel there are many people that would do this if it weren't true.

 

If your case went to adjudication I am certain the adjudicator wouldve found in your favour but as you say thats hassle you dont need in a difficult time like that.

 

On the point of going to the newspapers I can honestly say it does no vast amount of good. People are used to Councils getting a slagging off in the local paper and once the article is out the damage is done, so its rare for the decision to be reversed based on public opinion of an article. I would say it does sometimes affect future policy so its not a total waste of time. That is if your Council cares less about its PR!

 

Its also important not to direct your frustration towards parking attendants as they are protecting your interest, believe it or not. If you are to complain, complain at those who made the decision refusing your appeal. You will be suprised how easy the council buckle if you go in and speak to someone higher up face to face. Even a polite phone call to higher management can work wonders.

 

If you need further advice feel free to ask, and check out the numerous websites there are for making appeals.

 

Jed

[pampam]

Below is a copy of a letter I sent re a parking ticket.

 

I received a reply today containing a photo of my dashboard showing the badge displayed photo side up. (wrong way I know but Robert doesn't)!

 

The letter states that I must pay the fine imediately or I will not have the option of paying the reduced rate.

It goes on to say that I can appeal again if I think I have a case.

Any veiws or advice on this appreciated

Cheers

Pam

15th January 2007

 

Re Parking Ticket PCN Number *********

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I returned to my car this morning to find I had been issued with the above numbered parking ticket. I am writing to appeal against it.

 

I had Mr Robert Latus with me. He is a disabled badge holder. He has Downs Syndrome and also suffers from Epilepsy and Alzheimer’s disease.

 

When we parked in ******* Lane I let Robert put the Disabled Badge and clock on the dash board. He thinks this is a very important thing for him to do as he knows the card belongs to him.

 

I returned to the car at approximately 11.30am and put Robert back into the front seat. By the time I got into the drivers seat and noticed the Parking ticket Robert had taken the cards off the dash board.

 

I do not know why the ticket was issued. I can only presume that either the card was facing the wrong way or that the time on the clock had been altered by Robert. However, when I checked the clock later it was pointing to 10 am.

 

I have enclosed a copy of Roberts Parking Card Serial number ********

 

I do hope you will reconsider this fine under the exceptional circumstances. I am quite willing to bring Robert into your office if you would need to see his disabilities for yourselves.

 

Yours faithfully

Hi folks

Just an update

We have now sent 3 letters to try and get this fine reversed.

No joy.

Watch Peter Levy on Look North tonight 6.30pm.

Alan is appearing on there to state his case.

We will see if they cancel it after that!

Cheers

Pam

[petej2811]

If you want the ticket dropped and a full apology, then go to the local and national newspapers. This is one of those stories that editors love, and having done things like this in the past, I'm certain you could get into The Sun and your local paper. Probably a lot easier (and satisfying) persuing it that way than taking it up with the council.

 

I completely agree.

 

If the badge ws on the dash, the clock was right then you complied fully with the law.

 

I urge you in the strongest terms to contact as many nationals as you feel is fitting (though I would hate for you to use a rag like the Sun when the Daily Mail or the Express would take the story too). Your local paper would lap it up. The above comment is completely right.

 

Suggest to the papers that they might like to ask the council about this. Most papers have a resident 'expert' on hand who may or may not take the torch, as it were.

 

Beyond that appeal it and take it to the parking ombudsman. I can't see it getting past an appeal.

 

P

[steve!]

pampam: Good luck to you.

 

However I think you should not have paid the penalty and taken it through the appeals process. I did that without sending them a penny and they eventually decided not to defend 2 weeks before the tribunal was due to commence.

[Naarjtie]

I'll be sure to watch this, I just hope I can get the programme in Cumbria.

 

Who's Alan? I don't see his mention in any posts.

 

Best of luck.

[pampam]

I'll be sure to watch this, I just hope I can get the programme in Cumbria.

 

Who's Alan? I don't see his mention in any posts.

 

Best of luck.

 

Alan is a friend of mine. I posted the thread on his behalf.

H eappeared on Look North tonight but I don't think it did much good.

The council just sent a statement to the BBC stating more or less

"rules is rules"!!!

Thanks for all the support but it looks like he will now have to pay £60

Kind regards

Pam

[jed104]

I completely agree.

 

If the badge ws on the dash, the clock was right then you complied fully with the law.

 

P

 

Did you not read my post? The badge must be face up so the attendant can read the serial number and check if its expired or not.

 

The Council is fully within its rights to enforce this restriction as it costs them to issue penalties to people who ignore it. However my opinion is that it is better to give a warning and cancel on the first occasion...

[Naarjtie]

The Council is fully within its rights to enforce this restriction as it costs them to issue penalties to people who ignore it.

 

It certainly doesn't cost £60 to issue a penalty notice. £5 maybe. See 'unlawful bank charges'.

[jed104]

It certainly doesn't cost £60 to issue a penalty notice. £5 maybe. See 'unlawful bank charges'.

 

Actually it costs considerably more to issue and administer penalty charge notices than it does to automatically generate a bank charge. Most of the costs are for maintaining a patrol and signs/markings, but the actual observation, reporting and issue then the subsequent admin work I would estimate as costing well over £15 on its own. Especially considering the huge amount that are cancelled or never paid.

 

The main difference is that the charge isnt supposed to be based on costs its a penalty to discourage you from doing it again. Thats why the comparison to bank charges is not a relavant one to make as they charge you under the guise of recuperating admin costs not as a lawful penalty.

 

The reason I highlighted the costs issue, is because yes it does cost a large amount to enforce the restrictions and issue penalties, and you the tax payer are paying for this unless the penalty is paid. For this reason the enforcement is auditted to ensure we arent needlessly cancelling penalites and thus wasting taxpayers money issuing and adminstering them.

 

Its fair enough crying about the injustice of it all but the authority cant issue and uphold a penalty unless you've actually broken the law. Even if it was just a slip up why should the taxpayer pay for your mistake, and why should the attendant and the office staff waste their working time on penalties that are to be cancelled because someone didnt bother to check the rules and look back at their windscreen to see if a permit is clearly displayed?

 

You will find that penalty charge notices are not a big money spinner directly. I know for my local authority the cost of enforcement and chasing the money off non payers (a large amount of people just dont pay) means we've only just started breaking even. The real money is actually made on permit schemes, i.e. the threat of penalties generates an income from compliance with the schemes.

 

If you think that £60 (or usually £30) is a heavy penalty then good. I mean you wouldnt worry about sticking to the rules if it wasnt too costly to be bothered about would you? Even at this charge, day after day people chance it or just dont pay enough attention to how they are parking, they dont stop to think it could cause other people work, hassle and waste their time.

[pampam]

Actually it costs considerably more to issue and administer penalty charge notices than it does to automatically generate a bank charge. Most of the costs are for maintaining a patrol and signs/markings, but the actual observation, reporting and issue then the subsequent admin work I would estimate as costing well over £15 on its own. Especially considering the huge amount that are cancelled or never paid.

 

The main difference is that the charge isnt supposed to be based on costs its a penalty to discourage you from doing it again. Thats why the comparison to bank charges is not a relavant one to make as they charge you under the guise of recuperating admin costs not as a lawful penalty.

 

The reason I highlighted the costs issue, is because yes it does cost a large amount to enforce the restrictions and issue penalties, and you the tax payer are paying for this unless the penalty is paid. For this reason the enforcement is auditted to ensure we arent needlessly cancelling penalites and thus wasting taxpayers money issuing and adminstering them.

 

Its fair enough crying about the injustice of it all but the authority cant issue and uphold a penalty unless you've actually broken the law. Even if it was just a slip up why should the taxpayer pay for your mistake, and why should the attendant and the office staff waste their working time on penalties that are to be cancelled because someone didnt bother to check the rules and look back at their windscreen to see if a permit is clearly displayed?

 

You will find that penalty charge notices are not a big money spinner directly. I know for my local authority the cost of enforcement and chasing the money off non payers (a large amount of people just dont pay) means we've only just started breaking even. The real money is actually made on permit schemes, i.e. the threat of penalties generates an income from compliance with the schemes.

 

If you think that £60 (or usually £30) is a heavy penalty then good. I mean you wouldnt worry about sticking to the rules if it wasnt too costly to be bothered about would you? Even at this charge, day after day people chance it or just dont pay enough attention to how they are parking, they dont stop to think it could cause other people work, hassle and waste their time.

 

Well Jed104

You really are steamed up about this.

In Alans case it was all down to him allowing the disabled card holder to place the Blue Badge on the dashboard himself.

The card holder is very severely disabled. He has "Downs Syndrome",

Alzheimer’s disease, and epilepsy. He can only stand for a couple of minutes on his own so speed is of the essence when getting him out of the car into his wheelchair.

Maybe if you had to care for him for 24 hours you show a bit more empathy

Pam

[Zamzara]

Did you not read my post? The badge must be face up so the attendant can read the serial number and check if its expired or not.

 

If they doubt the authenticity then why not ask to see the serial number when the car user returns? Is having the attendant go to that small trouble really a worse result for society than forcing the carer of a disabled person to hand over a large wad of cash that they probably can't afford?

 

The fact that the appeal may be upheld the first time is irrelevant: 90% of people will just pay up the cash when threatened even if it causes hardship.

[dw190]

If they doubt the authenticity then why not ask to see the serial number when the car user returns? Is having the attendant go to that small trouble really a worse result for society than forcing the carer of a disabled person to hand over a large wad of cash that they probably can't afford?

 

The fact that the appeal may be upheld the first time is irrelevant: 90% of people will just pay up the cash when threatened even if it causes hardship.

 

The whole of the system is stacked in favour of the Councils and the initial Penalty is set at a figure to discourage appeals. £30, £40, £50. In most cases Joe Public just pays to avoid further hassle.

 

The threat of more serious penalty if you dont pay prompts most into paying.

 

Take an appeal all the way to Adjudication and the Councils don't offer any evidence if they have the slightest thought they may be wrong. This is to avoid any issue with already issued and future issued PCN's.

 

I will appeal any PCN that I receive all the way to Adjudication simply because it causes the Council more than the Penalty to Respond. (They usually engage expensive Barristers when the going gets tough but cannot claim the cost).

 

In the present case we have not seen a copy of the PCN which may in itself be defective.

[Howard0181]

Jed 104

 

You really need to understand whats happened and read carefully.

 

This person has Downs Syndrome. He cant do a great deal in life. He asks to display the badge and its the wrong way up.

 

And for that "crime" you support that he should pay a "penalty" of £30.00.

 

I feel feel sorry for this person who lives with this condition but you know what I feel more sorry for you!!

 

The person who gave this ticket could easily have read the badge. Could the person with Downs Syndrome?

 

This PCN should never have been issued and you really should say sorry for the hurt you must have caused.

 

This is a case for the adjudicator. Its a pity this person has been robbed of £30.00 and that you support whats happened.

[Zamzara]

...and you really should say sorry for the hurt you must have caused.

 

There I have to disagree. If everyone had to apologise for 'hurt' caused everytime they expressed their opinion, then new ideas would never get heard, and we'd be forever trapped in the current status quo.

[pampam]

Good news folks

The council have cancelled the parking fine on "compasionate Grounds"

Thank you all for your support and good luck with all your outstanding fines.

Thanks again

Pam, Alan & Robert

[ncf355]

Thank *** for that!

 

There are some sane people in the world after all

 

Digusting that you had to go through that in the first place, and I dont agree that the attendants shouldnt cop grief for this, a bit of common sense and less focus on revenue generation wouldnt go a miss

 

Good on you and Alan for being such caring individuals, we need more folks like you

 

:)