Carphone Warehouse - O2

[Befnal]

I cancelled a contract in November, a month prior to the end of the term, as I was changing networks. Along with the disconnection notice I requested the PAC to save myself changing numbers, but decided that I preffered the number allocated from my new network. Having cancelled the direct debit payments I thought no more of this until I received a bill for nearly £70 for 2 months line rental. I explained that I had requested disconnection at the end of the contract, but was told that because I didn't use the PAC the line remained active, even though the expiry date for the PAC was the same day my contract ended.

 

I have refused to pay the bill as I can find no mention of having to use a PAC once requested, in the terms and conditions of the contract. Carphone Warehouse have threatened to pass the debt on to a collection agency, whereas I would be prepared to take this to the courtroom if it were not for the fact that I have spent the past few years repairing my credit record.

 

If anyone has any similar experiences I would be grateful to hear of them.

[buzby]

Talk about double dealing! The request for the PAC is notice that the contractural relationship for that number on that network is at an end. If the PAC request is not made in time, the number is lost. So tough of the requestor. However, you requested termination AND a PAC code, so irrespective of your decidion not to transfer the number, you are not liable for any service as you correctly terminated. Just tell them the non-transfer of PAC does not invalidate your termination letter, and if they pass the matter for external collection or enter adverse information on your credit file, you will take immediate action to protect your interests, and the costs for so doing will be met by CW.

[Befnal]

Talk about double dealing! The request for the PAC is notice that the contractural relationship for that number on that network is at an end. If the PAC request is not made in time, the number is lost. So tough of the requestor. However, you requested termination AND a PAC code, so irrespective of your decidion not to transfer the number, you are not liable for any service as you correctly terminated. Just tell them the non-transfer of PAC does not invalidate your termination letter, and if they pass the matter for external collection or enter adverse information on your credit file, you will take immediate action to protect your interests, and the costs for so doing will be met by CW.

 

Thanks Buzby, I thought as much, but just wanted reassurance that I was doing the right thing. What make this even more strange is that I have been told that I won't receive any further bills, as the line will be disconnected after a 2 month period anyway!

[Janet-M]

Make sure that after you get this sorted you check your credit files as CPW still made incorrect entries on mine when they where in the wrong .I.E missed payments etc

I did get mine corrected but it was a few years before I checked my file and saw what they had entered ( I now keep an eye on my files ) so it had sat there for long enough.

[Befnal]

After countless email exchanges and phone calls to CPW they are still claiming that I owe them 3 months billing which was produced subsequent to my cancellation, I then received a notice from a collection agency with the threat of legal action if I did not pay up.

 

I called the agency and took great care in explaining the situation only to be told, and I quote: "I'm not interested in your dispute with our client", at which point I lost my temper and not very politely ended the call. They then called me back twice, both calls ended in the same manner as the initial call.

 

I have written to them to explain that I will not be paying the bills and if they insist on going to court I will be counter claiming for the time spent in correspondence and time lost at work due to having to attend the hearing.

[buzby]

Are they disputing you gave notice of termination (or a PAC request)?

[Befnal]

Are they disputing you gave notice of termination (or a PAC request)?

 

They're not disputing either, they are claiming that just because I chose not to use the PAC that I was liable for subsequent bills, despite the fact I had terminated the contract!

[buzby]

Fine. It is their error. You can wait until they try to enforce, or you can take the offensive by declaring their non-compliance to your cancellation is not acceptable and you will be taking action to protect your interests. This will cost £30 to check with CRAs etc, and they will be held liable for these charges until you receive assurances that any adverse credit data has been removed.

[Befnal]

Fine. It is their error. You can wait until they try to enforce, or you can take the offensive by declaring their non-compliance to your cancellation is not acceptable and you will be taking action to protect your interests. This will cost £30 to check with CRAs etc, and they will be held liable for these charges until you receive assurances that any adverse credit data has been removed.

 

 

Thanks again for the advice, will keep you posted.

[Befnal]

Update:

 

After a letter from Frederickson International last week I responded by saying that I would not be paying the bill as I had cancelled the contract and had paid the bill up to the 30 day notice period. This morning I received a Letter Before Action, threatening me with a bill of more than £100 if I did not pay the £30 they claim is due.

 

I have checked the terms and conditions of the contract and nowhere does it say that billing will continue if I fail to use the PUK code. That being the case I consider my cancellation to be valid and that a request for the code does not change that.

 

I intend to defend this claim, but equally I don't want to have to travel to a court room to fight my corner over a £30 bill, when it would cost me 5 times that amount in a days lost work. If I defend the claim successfully what am I allowed to claim back by way of expenses and loss of earnings?

[dw190]

Update:

 

After a letter from Frederickson International last week I responded by saying that I would not be paying the bill as I had cancelled the contract and had paid the bill up to the 30 day notice period. This morning I received a Letter Before Action, threatening me with a bill of more than £100 if I did not pay the £30 they claim is due.

 

I have checked the terms and conditions of the contract and nowhere does it say that billing will continue if I fail to use the PUK code. That being the case I consider my cancellation to be valid and that a request for the code does not change that.

 

I intend to defend this claim, but equally I don't want to have to travel to a court room to fight my corner over a £30 bill, when it would cost me 5 times that amount in a days lost work. If I defend the claim successfully what am I allowed to claim back by way of expenses and loss of earnings?

 

You can claim your reasonable out of pocket expenses, loss of earnings is limited in the small claims court. You can also claim for your time spent on preparing and researching at the rate of £9.25p per hour.

[kachnaaa]

Can anyone help me to write a letter before action to CPW?

 

It is all about a default account for 630 pounds that CPW filed with Credit Reference Agencies and this record is now stopping me from getting a mortgage or any other loan or credit card.

 

 

This is my story:

I terminated this contract with them in Oct 2007 (based on rule 8.5.3 of terms and conditions, then I sent further letters to them requesting cancellation in October, November 2007 and Jan 2008. They used to reply ignoring my cancellation request and saying that they are sorry that i am not happy and so on. They treated my letters as complaint letters but not as cancellation requests.

I wrote to them saying that they breached the contract by changing charging system and not informing me about it (paragraph 11 of terms and conditions), but they were saying that they sent me a text message to inform me about the change(paragraph 15.6). As I have never received the message, I asked them to show the proof that this message was sent, but they did not provide any proof. I also requested that they give me a copy of the content of this message or at least tell me what the message said, but they were not willing to do that either. So on the grounds that they had no evidence that this message had been sent I requested contract cancellation again (based on rule 8.5.3). They finally disconnected my phone in December 2007.

 

I checked my credit record with Experian in Sept 2008 and there was no adverse record. In July 2009 I searched my record again, as part of preparation to apply for a mortgage and I discovered that CPW filed a default on my account. I contacted Experian and they are unable to tell me when the default appeared on my account for the first time.

 

I phoned CPW on 12/8/09 to request this information be removed from my file but they said that I stopped paying my bills and breached the contract and they are not going to remove it. So basically they ignored all my letters to them from 2007, all my requests to terminate the contract. They ignored the fact that they breached the contract by not notifying me about the change and they are saying that I breached the contract because I stopped paying bills.

 

I emailed Consumer Direct asking for advice, they replied saying that they can only provide advice and they suggested that CPW might be in breach of contract and Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and they suggested that I file a claim in Small Claims Court.

 

In the court claim form I want to write that I would like the Court to make declaration/statement/order to CPW to force them to remove this record from my account, or Court order directly to Credit Agencies to remove this record from my account. I also would like the Court to force CPW to erase this debt of 630 pounds as they were charging me after the contract was finished ( I cancelled it in Oct 2007). I dont know the correct words and what to write in the claim form.

 

I was also thinking making a complaint about CPW to Information Commisioner.

 

My idea is that I will prepare the Court Claim Form ready to file in the court, and Information Comissioner complaint form ready to file but before I file them, I will write my last letter to CPW directly to their Legal Department. In this letter I will inform them that I WILL file this claim in the court and I WILL file a complaint with the Information Commissioner if I do not receive within seven days a confirmation in writing from CPW that my debt was erased and that Credit Record Agencies (Experian, Equifax and others) were instructed by CPW to remove all late payments (Oct 2007-Mar2008)records and Default from my account.

I am not sure how to write a letter like that so that is why I am asking for your help.

[buzby]

It's not that straightforward - you cannot summarily demand temrination of the account and expect it to be done. I agree that sending a text is hardly acceptable commercial practice of a change of any terms BUT CW so in fact state in their T&C's that you agree to let them do this, so this unfortunately removes the main plank of your argument.

 

If you simply stopped payment without them agreeing to cancel, close or waive the account - then you will be defaulted. As for Experian not knowing the date, they're telling porkies - the date is the most important element, as this dictates the expiry of the report. If you got a copy of your report, this would have been shown.

 

ICO will only act on verifiable innacuracies, but so far you've not given them anything to go on. I'm assuming the amount they say you owe reflects the balance of your contract at the new rate you dispute? Even so, you would remain liable for the ORIGINAL amount due to them (pre-change) it just doesn;t magically disappear, and this is why I'd avoid the court until this is resolved, as they could just as easily defend and counter-sue you for the full balance - something they would be unlikely to do unless you force them to.

[kachnaaa]

Thanks Buzby for writing back to me.

CPW claims that they had sent a text message to me, but I have never received it, and in one of my letters to them I requested evidence and a copy of this message and until now I have not received it. I thought that if they have not provided requested evidence of having sent the sms, then it means that I am right saying that they have not notify me about the change in charging system, so they are in breach of contract and I can terminate it.

 

What do you suggest I should do? I did not want to go to court yet, I wanted to write to them (and enclose a court claim form to make it look more serious) and request that they remove the default.

 

What do you suggest I should do?

[buzby]

Keep your powder dry - sending a copy of a court form smacks of desperation (some debt collectors sdo it too). What I find works is to be concise, and not threaten.

 

1) Say hat went wrong

2) What you require them to do to resolve the issue

3) What you'll do if they don't.

 

No 3 should NOT be - I'll see ypu in court. You feel that you have been reasonable and if the firm doesn;t see it your way, the only way forward is to consider your position and progress the matter was you see fit, which may include (but not limited to)formal litigation.

 

Don't say this if you don't plan to take it all the way. They may call your bluff otherwise. And good luck!

[kachnaaa]

another thing is that I have never signed a credit agreement with them. I upgraded my phone over the phone, they phoned me and insisted that I upgrade and I agreed verbally.

 

Does it make my situation any better?

[kachnaaa]

I have a draft letter, I am not sure if it is safe to publish it here. Is there anybody who is willing to read it and help me to improve it?

[locutus]

another thing is that I have never signed a credit agreement with them. I upgraded my phone over the phone, they phoned me and insisted that I upgrade and I agreed verbally.

 

Does it make my situation any better?

 

If you agreed to the upgrade over the phone it's just as binding as signing in blood i'm afraid , BTW mobiles give you a service agreement not a credit agreement (Credit being money).

 

Write a firm letter (post it here minus personal details if you want people to proof read it) State what has gone wrong, what you want them to do to put it right, ask for a DEADLOCK letter if they are unwilling to do what you have requested and a copy of their Code of practice.

[buzby]

As locutus notes - over the phone arrangements are just as binding. Incidentally, was 'credit agreement' a typo? Mobile phone deals are service contracts, and have no 'credit' ramifications whatsoever.

[kachnaaa]

This is my draft letter. I have a feeling that the first and the last paragraphs are not too strong, but they are supposed to be the most important ones. Is the middle section (explaining the whole story) not too long? English is not my first language and I have no experience with writing letters like that so any help and any feedback will be appreciated. Eg whole phrased that I could use...

 

 

I am writing to try to resolve our dispute before seeking damages for[MT1] breach of contract owing to your failure to notify me of the change in your charging structure.

If upon receipt of this letter this matter is not resolved I will be seeking a declaration[MT2] from the Court that entries kept by the credit reference agencies about a default account with CPW be deleted.

On[MT3] 12/08/09 I contacted CPW customer service for explanation regarding a default CPW account on my credit report for an outstanding amount of £630. As this entry was made in error I requested it to be removed, however, I was informed that this is for missed payments and that the record will not be removed. I am very upset about the way CPW dealt with my case especially that now this entry will prevent me from obtaining a mortgage.

In April 2007 I upgraded my phone and agreed to an 18-month contract. The only reason I stayed with CPW and o2 was because calls to non-geographical numbers 0845 and 0870 were included in my 1000 free minutes.

As soon as I discovered that the charging structure had been changed (from a bill in Oct2007, which was twice higher than usual) I wrote to your Customer Service and Disconnection Management (attachment 1) and requested to close my account in accordance with the terms of the contract (clause 8.5.3).

 

According to the terms and conditions of your contract (version that was valid in Oct 2007 – attachment no 2):

 

Clause 8.5.3 CPW states, that I am able to terminate the contract within "one month of our telling you about the changes". This cited phrase means[MT4] that you will TELL ME about the change -refer directly to me, and not just publish info on the web, or send a block text message.

 

 

Your response to my requests was that you had sent me an SMS on the 10th of August 2007 in agreement with clause 15.6 of the contract. As I have never received any message that would have informed me about any changes to the charging structure, in response I wrote to you asking for a copy of this SMS and also for any evidence proving that you had sent it to me. Upon receipt of this evidence I was willing to settle with you. I have never received the requested copy of the SMS, nor any proof of you sending it to me. I also called CPW customer service but nobody was able to inform me about the contents of the message nor to produce any evidence. All they were saying was that this message was sent to everyone, so I must have received it too, which does not suffice as proof.

 

In my letters to you I stated that due to the change in charging structure I would not benefit from this tariff. Since non-geographical numbers were not included in the 1000 minutes anymore, I would not have used up my minutes and there would be extra charges. Your reply to my complaint letter was simply that you are sorry that I am unhappy – you never offered any remedy, like lowering my monthly charge, changing my tariff etc. There was no willingness of cooperation to remediate this damaging situation for me.

 

Consumer Direct (www.consumerdirect.gov.uk) advised that a text message is not a reasonable way to inform that my contract would be changed. They said that I was not notified about the change in a DURABLE FORM and therefore CPW is in breach of contract and Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

 

Additionally you are in breach of the Fourth Principle of Data Protection Act 1988 which states that “Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date”.

 

I am giving you one final opportunity to produce the evidence that you notified me about the change in charging structure. If I do not receive requested documents within seven days, I will take legal proceedings against CPW.

Alternatively I will cease proceedings if I receive in writing from CPW within 7 days that the credit agencies have been notified to delete any adverse records against me (late payments and default) and that the matter is closed.

 

I hope that this can be resolved in a satisfactory manner,

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

[MT1]Am I seeking damages for them breaching the contract or for them charging me after I cancelled the contract and subsequently reporting default to credit agencies?

 

 

[MT2]Is this going to be a DECLARATION or ORDER from the Court?

 

 

[MT3]Shall I also write how I discovered the default by doing credit search , and that at present I am unable to get a mortgage with this default on my record? Shall I sue them for damages for loss because I am unable to buy a house so I am losing money by paying rent? Ie also requested PAC no, and never received it, so I lost my number and it costed me some money to inform everyone about my new number, with some people I lost contact because of this.

 

 

[MT4]

[buzby]

Personally, I dislike it as an opening gambit.

 

I'd start by quickly explaining the problem, and asking for it to be rectified. You can go in to the technicalities of what you might or might not do in subsequent letters if they don't back down. Incidentally, listing all the things you plan to do does not come over as 'strong' - quite the opposite. But this is just the way I'd feel if I had recieved your letter of complaint.

Edited August 28, 2009 by buzby

[kachnaaa]

My idea was to send this letter directly to their legal department, don't waste time with complaint dept. I already wrote to them many times back in 2007. So I don't intend this letter to be a complaint.

 

I also wanted to sort it out quickly, with this one final letter.

 

Do you reckon it is not going to work?

[buzby]

Your decision, of course - but if you try an end run (Legal before Customer services) it looks as though you've no patience and are just a pain-in-the.... If you take it sure an steady, there's room for negotiations and perhaps (just perhaps!) a resolution. Seeking retribution with a first letter normally gets nowhere....!

[locutus]

Also if it does end up in court, it's nice to see you're the reasonable one.