hsbc business claimants please help!!

[skyrocket123]

i'm doing my hubbys bus account for him. i queried with a few bus. claimants on here before i started that the random 'total charges' amounts eg £17.03, £36.98 etc were claimable and told they were.

now at the MCOL stage s having filed last week got a letter from good old jonathon cuff at hsbc asking me to clarify what the 'total charges' were. he says that the description 'total charges' is not sufficient and wants us to provide a breakdown. don't they make you laugh!

i am sending him a letter saying i agree that the description is not sufficient but i am working off the info that they themselves have provided me with and asking him why he imagines i would be more privy to this info than he is seeing as its their description in the first place not mine.

so i'm sending back my original list of charges.

but i'm a little concerned that this letter comes at this stage from hsbc and not dg solicitors? i'm assuming that i can claim these amounts back?

please help!

[Gazp2k]

You sure can, there just stalling tatics, and also trying to get you scared so you back out!. stick with it 8)

[Kopella]

thats pretty funny

[skyrocket123]

received a letter from jonathon duff which says that again they must understand precisely which charges i am referring to. again drivelling on about their terms and conditions.

i am a bit concerned that there aren't many people on here doing their bus. accounts and when i specifically enquired on here whether 'total charges' for a bus. acc were claimable i was told yes they were. and now i seem to be on my own at this stage. i feel very lost and not sure what to do.

[Guest NATTIE]

I am not a business account holder but do you pay. like most businesses, for paying in cash, cheques, taking out cash and cheques, do the the details match anything? Maybe I should not have posted that bit as you are at an advanced stage.

[skyrocket123]

this is my husbands acc. yes he does pay for things but everything is lumped together as 'total charges'. before i started i made loads of enquiries on here with people who were bus. customers and was told that the 'total charges' in this case were claimable.

now these people are strangely quiet and i feel a rising surge of panic because i don't know what to do next.

[skyrocket123]

they are not shown as seperate charges just lumped as 'total charges'. hsbc will not supply a breakdown, they expect me to know more than they do. or at least for me to know more than they are willing to tell me.

[the_final_straw]

skyrocket,

 

I know how you feel. I'm going down the same route and having exactly the same problems as you. I did query the business account 'Total Charges' advice on this site right from the outset as I had a sneaky suspicion that not all of it was going to be reclaimable.

 

Obviously, if I can, I want to back HSBC into a corner where they have to divulge ALL of their charges to the court..which they dont want to do! I'm thinking about how to do this and keeping my eyes open for any more business claims going on to see the outcome of 'Total Charges'

 

Karnevil,

quote: well they will have a breakdown, and this should be supplied to you as part of your Data Protection Act. Therefore they are in breach of the DPA by not breaking down the charges, and in my opinion that entitles yuu to claim the whole caboodle.

 

Jonathan says its not sufficient for you to claim TOTAL CHARGES - tell him its not sufficient for them only to tell you total charges - what do you enter in your accounts if theres no breakdown ?

Thats a good point, but as I have recently found out, business accounts are NOT COVERED by Data Protection (or subject access request).

 

I've been banging on about this for some time, I really do feel that business account customers need a seperate (or sub thread) where we can discuss the ins and outs and legal complexities of business status accounts with others in the same boat and with people who have absolute cast iron proven advice.

 

I have seen a lot of posters jumping in with advice gleened from personal accounts which has absolutley no relevance to business accounts. As most business claims are running into many many thousands of pounds (the record on this site is nearly £40,000!!) and mine personally is running to nearly £15,000

 

Herein lies the danger - if one of us business customers gets this wrong and HSBC manage to drag this into a higher court (which seems likley due to the amounts involved) they can claim their costs if we lose.

That would bankrupt me.

 

Just imagine how many people would be scared off claiming their legitimate unlawful charges on their personal accounts if HSBC managed to bankrupt me? They would hold up my battered and bruised body up and say - this is what happens if you take on the bank, we'll crush you.

 

WE NEED a dedicated HSBC Business Account forum.

 

 

 

 

Thats

[skyrocket123]

i agree completely!

on the advice of others on here i filed claiming these random 'total charges' and now feel completely abandoned because it would appear that the people who had told me i could claim these random amounts haven't actually filed themselves. i'm worried that i'm going to be made an example of by hsbc because of the stage i'm at.

i get advice from those people who have had success with their personal accounts but i too have successfully sued on my personal accounts and this is very different.

i need some help please

[nicethan]

hi all im a business account holder and im wondering if you could answer this simple question for me please i know its on a thread about business claiments please help but my question to you all if you know is,is the prilimanry approach for payment the same as current account holders? and i have seen that the lba is different,i am right on this if not could you please advice me otherwise if you know?

sorry i cant help with your problem i wish i could.

thanks

[Neil Birch]

The claim against HSBC is for the dissproportionate charges levied by the bank compared with the actual cost of there action.

With a business account there is no FREE banking and there is a charge for each and every transaction.Whilst there may be a case for arguing the charge is disspropionate to the COST to the bank it would be more difficult to bring this as the charge is much closer to the perceived cost [as the banks have so not answered the question] so it could be difficult to pursue this.

Aside for these daily transaction charges however the bank does charge roughly the same tariff for exceptional matters ie returned dd cheques etc and also cheques that are bounced on you [by a client- these are normally free for personal customers].

These charges can therefore be regarded as a penalty and should be challenged.

On my hsbc acct these charges are listed seperately are yours?

[skyrocket123]

no they aren't. they are just lumped together as 'total charges'. they are random amounts eg £17.03, £34.67 etc. i asked a few people on here before i sent off my prelim were these claimable and was told emphatically yes they were.

[the_final_straw]

skyrocket,

 

This is merely in my humble opinion (dont take it as gospel!!) and what appears to be happening in my case -

 

My business account doesnt get charged for cashing a cheque or depositing money. Instead I have been charged a flat 1% turnover charge. So in my case, I do have random 'Total Charges' amounts (just like you!) that dont seem to tally with anything.. but in fact, it appears to be part of the 'turnover charge' ----I still dont know whether this a legitimate fee for service but I suspect it is.

 

You need to find out what agreement you signed on your business account and how they were going to charge you. Once you have this info it should make things a bit clearer.

[Neil Birch]

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_4_24P/content/uk/pdfs/en/bus_bnkg_price_list.pdf

this is the current list of charges applicable to HSBC business customers.

If you look at this it gives a simple breakdown of the charges incurred.

I personally do not feel you could challenge the charge of 30p for an automated credit or 70p for a counter credit because this not a penalty.

Even the charge £12.00 which is made for a retd chq might be argued as fair [its probably a bit over the top] but it is line with th £12.00 the oft presented as a fair charge in the credit card cases which is where this started and is now accepted by the creditcard companies as the maximum they could charge.

This is however much less than the £30 or so charged to personal account holders.

The bank may listen to your case and may settle if the claim is low [sub 5000] and they want to keep your business but I feel this is risky strategy.

You might try running some of your business through a personal account to avoid these charges but be wary as they will soon generate a use profile and alarm bells go off or change to nationwide who do not charge for business accounts used in credit.

[skyrocket123]

hi neil

that link isn't opening anything for me.

the oft didn't actually say that £12 was deemed to be a fair charge. just that a charge should be no more than £12. There has never been any proof so far that it costs the bank nor credit card company £12 for a late payment etc.

thankyou though for replying to me.

it's doing my head in though that when i asked people initially if these random 'total charges' were deemed claimable i was told resoundingly yes. and now i'm running into difficulties those people are strangely quiet.

i have already filed on mcol and they have entered a defence. where do i go from here?

anyone?

[the_final_straw]

Contact a moderator skyrocket.

 

I'm sorry I cant give you any advice as I havent got to the court stage yet.

[skyrocket123]

moderaters!

help!

[coolchilli]

Hi Guys,

 

Coolchilli to the rescue!

 

Thanks Straw for your help regarding the S.A.R. I must admit I jumped into this both feet first, and having understood the complexities, I have somewhat backed out to re-assess the situation.

 

Firstly, I would like to provide some background as to my situation. I am a Cambridge graduate and specialised in Company and Contract Law. That said, I'm not a very good lawyer, as I was spending most of my time at university running a business (which ultimately failed). When push came to shove, HSBC nearly bankrupted me, and were incredibly unreasonable with the way they treated me. I was pretty close to the edge at one stage, but thankfully have spent the last year getting back on track- and (ahem) have been working in the Financial Services Industry since Feb last year (yes, sorry guys, my company does marketing for the likes of HSBC)- the irony will be lost to many!

 

At the beginning of 2006 I had just over £120k of unsecured personal debt and a PG of a business lease worth over £17k p.a. (oh- and no income). I now have less than £80k unsecured debt, and much of which I expect to be written off in the coming months. My reduction in debt has not been down to me paying it off- but simply telling the likes of HSBC to go and get stuffed when they came harrassing me for money. I am, as you can imagine, rather satisfied with the situation- and eagerly want to help as many other people achieve the same.

 

I too have been dealing with the delightful Jonathan Cuff at HSBC. I must say that he seems to know his stuff- and is clearly reading these threads (he was quite happy to correspond with me via email until he realised I was posting all his correspondence on my thread). In my view, there will come a time, when the banks start to monitor this site closely with the aid of their legal teams and try to find ways of preventing us succeeding with our claims. There is, after all, beginning to be enough money at stake for them for it to be worth their whiles.

 

Straw, you were worried about losing a case against HSBC and having to pay charges. I can reassure you that this would not be the case. Let's say your legitimate charges are £6000, but you decide to bring a claim for £15000 on the hope that HSBC wont defend (called a nuisance claim in the business). You argue your case that the £6000 charges are legitimate, and HSBC argue their case that the extra £9000 is within the business Ts & Cs. Judgement will be awarded against HSBC for £6000 and they will have to pay your costs as they have technically lost. The same applies if the judge finds that £10 of the charges were illegitimate ( or 1p for that matter). The only thing to be very careful with is to make sure you follow court proceedure at all times, and that you keep to the time limits imposed by the courts. If you break the court proceedure (or miss a deadline) your case can be thrown out- and then all the costs can be awarded against you. This, I believe, (any other lawyers please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is the only danger with pursuing a nuisiance claim against the banks.

 

As for me, I am claiming a total of nearly £7000 in charges and interest over a six year period on my personal and small business (sole trader) accounts. I have no idea how much of this is within the HSBC Ts & Cs- but until they provide me with an itemised breakdown as per my S.A.R. (thanks, Straw- deadline 19th January), I shall be claiming every penny from them as per my right. I suggest each and every one of you out there in a similar position do the same (but make sure there is at least a shread of legitimacy about your claim). Eventually, the banks will automate a system whereby they will be able to itemise the manual interventions and actual charges on receipt of the first letter. Until, this happens I think its fair game.

 

Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk offline. Skyrocket- dont get disheartened. I went through a lot of pain to get this far, and I can assure you that you will come out stronger in the end. Just keep your mind on the money- and how much better off you will be once the settlement cheque arrives!

[skyrocket123]

well update: jonathon cuff rang my hubby and they chatted and agreed a settlement figure. jonathon by the way says he gets loads of these letters and they are standard and he is obviously monitoring this site. i beg to differ jonathon, the letters i write are nothing standard!

anyway they agreed a settlement and my hubby promised to keep his account in order. then the letter came and i crossed out the 'full and final' etc bit. today a letter from jonathon came saying they were giving my hubby 30 days notice on his business account.

so any advice now?

[coolchilli]

Hi Skyrocket!

 

Is the settlement figure which you have agreed in respect of 100% the charges you claimed? If not, I would recommend against signing the agreement and try and get more. At the end of the day its your money, and HSBC aren't exactly going to go bust overnight by paying it back to you. Of course, if its a small amount difference, you may feel that its not worth the hassle in chasing it further. Only you can make this call.

 

It might be worth having a watch of Working Lunch which was on BBC2 today (11th Jan). You can watch it again via the BBC website (although it will probably only be there until tomorrow). Apparently not a single case has actually ended in court. Every single time, the banks have preferred to settle out of court. I for one will not give up until I receive a refund of every single penny which I'm owed. You may wish to threaten Mr Cuff with taking your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service unless he improves on the offer he has made to you. According to Working Lunch it costs the banks £360 every time a complaint is made. Food for thought.

 

Feel free to PM me if you want specific advice. I'm here to help!

[coolchilli]

oh- and just following on from my last post. As delightful as Mr Cuff is, I would recommend against having telephone conversations with him. He is paid by HSBC to minimise the amount they repay back to people like us. He will be more successful at this task by making telephone calls, than he will by email/ post, plus he knows that on the phone you dont have the benefit of the community help you get from this site.

[Guest NATTIE]

not all bank workers are like this not even those dealing as the face of banks. JMHO

[provide]

sorry done a duplicate post. can't work out how to delete..

 

sorry

 

pls ignore

[provide]

they are not shown as seperate charges just lumped as 'total charges'. hsbc will not supply a breakdown, they expect me to know more than they do. or at least for me to know more than they are willing to tell me.

Hey Skyrocket,

I'm having the same prob as you in that HSBC refuse to send me the breakdown of charges. They did send me 6 years statements all posted in seperate envelopes (that's where are charges go!) but not with the original sheet with every statement that shows the breakdown. They said they do not store this info and i have already been sent it. I plan therefore to put a claim in for the total amount less a £5 p.m. deduction which is my estimated legal (non penalty) charges.

 

How did you get on? Did you get the full claim, or did they eventually provide you with the breakdown?

 

Thanks for your time..

 

Steve (£4k potential claim)

[provide]

Hi CoolChilli, Hi everyone..

 

I'm in a similar boat to you in that I had a business that ultimetly failed and as a result ended up with heaps of penalty charges. So now it's my job to get what should be about 2.5K back from HSBC to spend on something like a holiday - i won't forget to send them a postcard

 

My question I hope you can help with is to clarify your point about total charges. Basically HSBC sent me 6 years of statement in individual envelopes. They did not include the original sheet that shows a breakdown of charges, just the statement which shows all the charges grouped together as "total charges". I estimate 90% + are penalties and unauth overdraft fees. When I chased this info they have not been helpful stating they do not store this info. Yeah right!

 

Would you suggest i send the letter template stating they must comply to the Data Protection Act (SAR thing) and supply the complete data, or should I just proceed to court and leave it up to them to prove what they don't owe me? I'd like to move ASAP as more people are getting on the train and I've been sitting on this for nearly a year now.

 

I've taken a crap customer to the small clains before so I'm not worries about the exerienced.. almost looking forward to it!

 

Anyone with advice is very welcome thanks..

 

Cheers