Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged"- **Judgment for Conversion of destroyed item. **WON**

[BankFodder]

Generally speaking a very familiar story although this business of destroying people's goods is relatively new and we have only been getting reports this in the past two or three months.

You will certainly have to begin a small claim in the County Court to get your money back on this. This seems to be the way that goes and it suggests to me that by and large Hermes are getting away with so many of these claims, that they still think that it is worth their while spending the extra money producing a general deterrent and resisting the few people who are actually prepared to face them out by forcing them to issue County Court claims.

Of course if thousands more people started issuing claims, Hermes would have to rethink their policy because it wouldn't be worth their while forcing things into court all the time.

So you used Packlink to send an item worth £650 – a Gucci bag
Hermes was chosen, of course, because Packlink and Hermes are either basically the same – or they have a partnership agreement that seems to be fairly exclusive. (I wonder if anyone has experiences of Packlink dealing with any other courier company???!).

Then we get a jumble of information from Hermes but ends up that the item was damaged and so apparently they have destroyed it.
You, quite reasonably, have asked for evidence of the damage – and of course, no evidence was forthcoming – even though of course that would be the most sensible thing for Hermes to do.

What is interesting is that at one point you said that you figure that you had spotted your bag being sold on eBay. Then you didn't make any further reference to this – so please can you tell us more about it. Did you take screenshots?
I notice that in your rather extensive and over-detailed draft letter to Hermes, you have made absolutely no mention of this at all.

Hermes of course have knocked you back and you have been offered the standard £25.

Where the contents of the parcel properly declared? Was the value properly declared? And presumably you didn't buy their so called insurance/compensation cover.

 

Your letter of claim is far too detailed and you should not send it. There's no need to tell them your life story. Also you are trying to ask for £50 for distress. You won't get it. It's not worth making claims for something that you can't possibly get. You should only back winners.

However there is another idea that I have by which we might be able to improve the level of compensation you are claiming – and more than £50.

Have you read all the relevant threads on this sub- forum?

When you issue a claim, Hermes will defend.

They will defend on the following points:
that you don't have a contract with them, your contract is with Packlink.
That you didn't choose insurance cover.
They will put you to proof as to the value of the item that you are claiming for.

They will most likely say that they would be prepared to go to mediation.

So you should make sure that you have read up the various stories where the discussions of turned on those above four points.
Understand the responses to the Hermes defence points and also understand the mediation journey and the pressure that you will come under even from the mediator to reduce your claim. Understand what we have to say about that.

Please let me have your comments on what I have posted here and we will go further

[BankFodder]

First of all I think you should slow down and be in less of a hurry to send your letter of claim.

I think that you should engage with us to let you help you get all your ducks in a row. There is a massive hurry and if you respond promptly to our questions what we post here then you can certainly get a letter of claim out the door by the weekend.

I would be interested to know more about the eBay sale. Maybe you could post up some pictures of the bag when you had it and also some pictures of the bag which you found on eBay and which you think might be yours.

I suggested to you in my last post that there could be another way of obtaining a bit more compensation.
I'm thinking about adding a possible claim for trespass/conversion. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32

 

It would be helpful if you could tell us how you came into possession of this bag. Was it a personal item of yours which you are selling or did you acquire it simply to sell it?

Also, you had an exchange with Hermes about the bag in which they told you that it was damaged and then destroyed.

Please could you post up that exchange in scanned multipage single file PDF format.

 

[BankFodder]

Also, presumably you sold the bag and then had to reimburse the purchaser – is this correct?

You will probably have to provide evidence of all of this.

[BankFodder]

I have the pictures – and I've responded to you by email but please could you post the exchange that you had up on this thread.

Have you actually made a complaint against Hermes directly?

[BankFodder]

Okay. Thank you for this.

My own preference would be to take this a little more steadily and to make a complaint to Hermes directly so that you get something from them which knocks you back. Ideally, they would confirm that the item was damaged – although I suspect that they will simply say that it has been lost.

You could send a letter of claim straightaway and then begin an action in 14 days if you want. We will help you. On the other hand, you could send Hermes an SAR as well as starting a complaint against them to see what you get.

I think it would be worth sending Hermes an SAR anyway – and I suggest that you do that immediately.

If you decide to begin a claim against Hermes then you should do that immediately but make it completely separate from the SAR so that they don't get too confused about what you are doing.

If you prefer simply to send the letter of claim and then begin the action, send Hermes the SAR anyway and we will help you prepare a letter of claim.

On the information which you have received from Packlink, you can either sue Hermes for a breach of contract and their negligence or else you can sue them in the tort of conversion under the 1977 act for the value of your item plus a request for a discretionary amount of damages for the trespass which they have committed and I would suggest that you keep that to a fairly modest amount, say, maximum of £100 – in the discretion of the court.

 

Frankly if you went for this latter option then I would prefer to hear it directly from Hermes that they have damaged the item and destroyed it. Although there have been lots of allegations and initial claims even by Hermes the items have been damaged and then destroyed, when it comes to defences, they always simply say that it was lost.

If you are prepared to send an SAR and then wait a while for that to be dealt with, you might then find that there is a conversation in which they told Packlink that it was damaged. If you discovered that in a disclosure then I think that a court action for conversion/trespass would be slamdunk.

Another possibility would be to sue for breach of contract caused by their negligence and in the alternative sue for conversion.

I'm sorry to give you so many possibilities but from our point of view, suing for conversion presents a very tempting experiment – but as I've said, it would be nice to get it confirmed in their own conversation.

I more suspicious about the second hand conversations we get from Packlink – and it really makes me wonder whether they really contact Hermes and whether Hermes really given the true story or just feed them a line.

Whatever you do, send Hermes the SAR straightaway. It's free, there's nothing to lose and so you may as well get going

 

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but the screenshots you have posted above are not legible – and especially on a small screen. This is why we ask you to put things up in PDF format

[BankFodder]

If your screenshots – which are really not easy to read – really do confirm from various sources that Hermes have said that the item is damaged, then probably you don't need to bring a complaint. You could go ahead and send the letter of claim.

In that case, you need to decide whether you think you would like to try for the trespass/conversion option – and probably jointly with the breach of contract.

It would certainly be very interesting to see what Hermes reactions are

[BankFodder]

I suggest something broadly like this:

Although I suggest that you should have sent off your SAR by now – and that you send this letter of claim on Monday, 4 January.

Hermes routinely send an acknowledgement giving them an extra 14 days to respond – a total of 28 days. That means that by the time it comes for you to issue the claim you should have an idea of whether or not they going to make a disclosure.

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

 

Letter of Claim – Your Tracking Number XXX

 

As you know, I used your services to deliver a parcel containing a Gucci bag value £XXX's to an address in the United Kingdom.

I understand from Packlink and also from the intended recipient of the parcel that you damaged it and that you decided to destroy it.

Your contractual obligations were to deliver my property safely to the intended recipient. Furthermore, in destroying my property who acted without consent and furthermore, although I have asked for evidence of the damage caused to the parcel, you have not provided any.

Not only have you breached your contract with me by failing to deliver my parcel, you have also dealt with my property in an unauthorised way by damaging it to your own negligence and then proceeding to destroy it without any reference to me.

This is my notice to you that I'm proposing to sue you for the value of my property – £XXX and additionally I am proposing to invite the court to award me an additional sum for your conversion to my property by usurping my own rights as owner, of an additional sum of £XXX subject to the discretion of the court.

If I do not receive a reimbursement of £XXX within 14 days then I shall sue you in the County Court and without any further notice.

Yours faithfully

 

 

Make sure that this is correct and let us know if you feel that there is anything which needs to be added

[BankFodder]

You can only ask for compensation in respect of the SAR, if they have not complied with a statutory duty – and if as a result of their failure to comply it has caused you distress.

[BankFodder]

Thanks for the update.

I would certainly wait until the expiry of the SAR date before starting any action.

Keep us informed

[BankFodder]

You have a judgement against Hermes? When was it granted? You should apply for execution of the judgement immediately. You shouldn't even be asking us.

One thing though – you should check that you have actually serve the papers on a real physical address.

We have had one case recently against virgin where we discovered that the papers have been served on a postcode – but it was actually a redirection address and that there was no physical address which could be visited by bailiffs.

What address did you use for the claim?

[BankFodder]

It looks good. Check that you can find the physical address using Google and then apply for the warrant.

[BankFodder]

Thanks very much indeed for this. I'm very pleased you've had a result – and also it's very satisfying to have had the result on the back of a judgement and having issued the warrant.

Did you get everything back including all of your costs and the cost of the warrant? Did you get the full value of the judgement – including the compensation for conversion of this apparently damaged bag?

 

It will be very interesting and appreciated by many people if you would post up a copy of the judgement please. I think maybe we will use it as a trophy!

We've received a donation – I'm not sure if it was from you, but I responded by email.

Thank you very much indeed once again

 

[BankFodder]

Thank you for this – and thank you for the donation.

You need to check your PayPal email address because that was the email which was used for it.

It would certainly be nice to think that Hermes didn't know how to handle a claim for Conversion – but I'm afraid I think it is most likely that it simply escaped their notice – the whole thing.

Anyway we'll see. There will be lots more conversion actions in the future and if and when they actually respond to them, will see how they deal with it.

[BankFodder]

A similar case:

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

You should be asking them to provide you with photographic evidence of the damage. They should provide it – but of course they won't.
They never do

 

I'm sorry to say that this is all extremely predictable.

Have you read up the Hermes stories in the sub- forum yet? You should do that as a preparation for the action which you will inevitably have to take if you want to make any headway.

 

Also, you haven't addressed the question I asked as to the change of metal and its effect on the sentimental value