Civil enforcement LTD - The Quays, Salford M50 3SQ **CANC'd by Water Sports Centre manager**

[Hair Bear]

I had a job interview at a Water Sports Centre and parked on their car park.

 

The sign on entering said “For Centre Users Only” and had no information beyond that so I never bothered digesting any other signs (given one expects no ambiguity on signage) although on another I noticed another sign with big letters saying “WATERSPORTS CENTRE CUSTOMER PARKING ONLY” but didn’t read the smaller letters underneath (which I subsequently have) which read “You must obtain a parking permit at reception” and then smaller letters saying you will be subject to a fine if not.

 

I did ask inside if it was okay to park there and was told “Yes, as long as you are a centre user”, but nothing about getting a permit.

 

Not long after I received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd. I rang the receptionist of the company I had an interview with, who said I should have signed an iPad at the time (thanks for not mentioning it) and added that we had to deal directly with Civil Enforcement Ltd.

 

So I appealed online, saying I was a centre user because I was having a job interview there, and that as far as I was aware, as a consumer when there are conflicting signs you are entitled to use the most advantageous to you, which in my case would be the sign on entry that had no mention of a fine or getting a permit. I’ve received a letter back, which I have attached. Any feedback would be great, thanks.  

 

pcn.pdf

[honeybee13]

Can you fill this in please to give the guys enough information to advise you?

 

Also, can you tell us what you said in your appeal because it sounds as if you identified yourself as the driver. If this happens to you again, please pop in here and ask before you start contacting people.

 

I expect the guys will be along later.

 

HB

 

[Hair Bear]

"Is this car park just for the water sports people or are there other businesses that use the same one?" I'm unsure but the water sports comes under 'Salford Community Leisure' and the job I was applying for was with Salford Community Leisure.

 

car parking.pdf

 

1 Date of the infringement

  

16/05/2019

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

 

The date of the original Notice to Driver/PCN was 21/05/2019.

 

Note that this was sent to my partner, then we sent the appeal saying it was my job interview (I’m aware now that we shouldn’t have named a name, whoops). The issue date of the new Notice to Driver/PCN is

 

11/06/2019.

 

3 Date received

 

Unsure because we have just come back from seeing family, so opened it yesterday (3^rd).

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

 

I don’t see “2012” written anywhere, so will post the back of the PCN after uploading this (front page already posted, along with Response to Representation letter)

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

 

They have a picture of the car coming in and going out, as seen on the PCN. I will post the signage after uploading this.

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

 

Yes.

 

In the first instance we sent this…

 

“Appealing PCN Number: 1968837105

 

During the time that my car was parked in the Watersports Centre’s parking lot I was at a job interview in that centre. Here is a copy of the email sent me following my application:

XXXX

I am pleased to inform you that you have been selected for an interview for the above mentioned post.

The interview details are as follows:

Date:     Thursday 16^th May 2019

At:          Helly Hansen Watersports Centre

Time:     Interview task 3.30pm followed by interview @ 4.00pm

 Please arrive 15 minutes prior to the interview task, the interview will be approx. 45 minutes long.

 If you are unable to attend this interview, please contact me immediately.

 Kind regards,

 

XXXX
Management Support Officer to          
Mark Chew – Director of Leisure        
Garry Bateman – Head of Sport

When arriving at the centre I read the sign that was next to the barrier, which reads:

 

SALFORD WATERSPORTS CENTRE

For Centre Users Only

Vehicles left at owners risk

Leisure in Salford

 

Given I was a centre user, this sign gave me permission to park. Apparently there are other signs with different messages on, which I didn’t read because there should be no ambiguity with signage, and having gone back to look I see that there are three different signs with different information on.

As a consumer when there are conflicting signs then you are entitled to use the most advantageous to you. More to the point, I did double check inside the building that I was okay to park there and was told yes.  Nobody mentioned, as I have since learned, that one has to sign an iPad.

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

 

Yes. They sent a fresh PCN with my name on it, and also a Response to Representation, which I have posted.

 

7 Who is the parking company?

 

Civl Enforcement Ltd

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

 

Helly Hansen Water Sports Centre, The Quays, Salford, M50 3SQ

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

 

It says can appeal to POPLA

[ericsbrother]

well, as you were invited to be there by the owner or occupier of the car park is is damed lazy of them not to tell CEL to cancel the charge.

The NTK fails to create ANY lisbility under the POFA so identifying yourself as driver has done you no harm but CEL wont care about the niceties of the law and nor will POPLA.

 

Did you get the job?

If not then you have nothing to lose by having a go at the management of the leisure centre for failing to enter your details for you when you enquired at the desk.

as far as contracts with CEL go, you were a user so any other bits dont count, you were invited to e there and the reception offered terms that were superior to the signage as far as contracts go so CEL are on to a loser in the long run.

i woud be asking the senior manager at the place again to intercede and make it clear that reception  gave you the duff info when you asked so they carry the liability for getting CEL to cancel as you followed THEIR instruction.

If they still wont play ball then unusually I would seggest an appeal to POPLA, not because they will make the right decision but because it will cost CEL and they may decide not to fight the appeal anyways.

we will help you with that appeal but soe piccies of the signage will help us enormously

Edited July 4, 2019 by ericsbrother

[Hair Bear]

Signage here on this pdf

signage.pdf

[Hair Bear]

No, I didn't get the job despite being the most qualified. Perhaps a case of 'wh'o one knows, not' wha't. I shall contact management, as advised, and let you know the outcome. Thanks all. 

[ericsbrother]

yes please do. Dont take no for an answer though, they invited you and said you can park

[Hair Bear]

I tried contacting the person who interviewed me with no luck, so left a message for her.

 

Today I literally went to the centre itself (being careful to park elsewhere lol) and spoke to the duty manager.

She said that my message had been passed on to her with a note asking her to contact the parking people and say I had a right to park. She said she will do this on Monday, so hopefully it will get sorted.

 

Even so, should I prepare a POPLA appeal just in case?

According to Civil Enforcement I have until Tuesday to launch the appeal (not sure if they mean midnight Monday or any time Tuesday), and since there's no guarantee that the manager's efforts won't fall on deaf ears, or even that she will contact them, maybe I should launch an appeal regardless?

[dx100uk]

no ignore their stupid timelines.

 

dx

 

[renegadeimp]

You have supremacy of contract.  They cant touch you.  PPC dont care though. Theyll lie bluff and cheat simply to get money from you by any means. All the communication so far is automatic. Its likely nobody at the one man band has ever looked at your details.

[Hair Bear]

Ok, thanks all.

[ericsbrother]

getting the place you visited to kick CEL is the main thing here, thye caused the problem. Anyways I bet that the landowner didnt sign anything but some lesser management and that will undo CEL's authority to be there.

[Hair Bear]

Conclusion....

 

Good news. After a few reminders on my part the centre's manager finally got hold of Civil Enforcement to ask them to cancel the fine, which they apparently did (I have nothing from Civil Enforcement about that, just the centre's manager's email today saying they have cancelled it). So thanks everyone for your wonderful advice!

[dx100uk]

Fine??

[Hair Bear]

Fine, meaning PCN (charge). Sorry.

[renegadeimp]

Keep that email safe.  Ppcs rarely ever admit fault and may try to chase in a few months or even a year or two hoping that you don't have any paperwork so they can  try and chase you unchallenged.

Edited July 15, 2019 by renegadeimp

[Hair Bear]

On 15/07/2019 at 06:20, renegadeimp said:

Keep that email safe.  Ppcs rarely ever admit fault and may try to chase in a few months or even a year or two hoping that you don't have any paperwork so they can  try and chase you unchallenged.

Will do! Cheers.

[ericsbrother]

good for you for not accepting the first thing you were told.

This direct route works well with a lot of supermarkets etc that have control over their own land but less so with retail parks where the shops are just tenants and suffer as much as their customers by the stupidity of their landlord's contract with a bunch of bandits.

 

as said, keep the email safe so you can ram it down CEL's throat if they try their luck in the future.

 

It does happen on occasion when they run out of current targets.

[Hair Bear]

 

Many thanks for your input.