Jacqueline07 v Dudley Building Society **Lost in court -charges - no costs**

[Jacqueline07]

OK - received their skeleton argument today (court case tomorrow!!) and goes as follows:

 

1. The Claimants were fully aware of the contract they were signing with the building society and the fact that charges could be made if they defaulted in payments for their mortgage. They signed a mortgage deed bla bla. There were over 120 mortgage lenders in the market so the claimants were in a strong position to shop around for lower charges.

 

2. The charges that have been made have always been set out in annual notices to borrowers. etc

 

3. They breached their contract with the society by failing to make their currently monthly instalments on eleven occasions in the ten months that their account was opened.

 

4. The charge made by the society were not extravagant or unconscionable and therefore is not a penalty but common law. This payment was not intended to deter the breach, but was intended to be compensation for the society to cover the additional work incurred by the claimant's default. If the society failed to make the charge, the costs would have to be spread between borrowers who honour their mortgage contract with the society and this would undoubtedly be unfair.

 

5. The claimants failed to adhere to the correct complaints procedure, they failed to go to the financial services ombudsman and therefore the defendants would argue that the claimants are not entitled to court costs or any other costs they may wish to claim.

 

They then provide a breakdown of costs:

 

charge made by society's bank for returned dd £4.50

 

costs of senior member of the collections team

dealing with the notification of returned dd and

manually entering into the system. Preparing

chasing letter. Assume 30 minutes (annual

salary £12,0000). £3.30

 

Member of staff to deal with the stamping/

posting of the letters at the Post Office. Assume

15 minutes (annual salary £6,250.00) £ 0.85

 

Postage and stationery costs £0.57

 

As soon as a monthly instalment becomes overdue

it becomes an arrears matter and has to be reviewed

by the General Manager. Assume 10 minutes

(annual salary £38,500.00) £3.52

 

TOTAL: £12.74

 

In addition to the above the Society needs to consider additional costs of power, light, and heating and considered the £10.00 charge was reasonable but this charge having remained the same for at least 6 years with increases in wages and expenditure the Society took the commercial view to increase their charges to £20.00 and the appropriate notice was given to their members.

 

 

I'm a bit miffed that I have only received this today. It is also unclear whether the information given above is todays costs or those of 2000 (when we had the mortgage). I would also question whether some of these items are actually true.

 

Any comments gratefully received.

[Jacqueline07]

BTW - the skeleton argument were supposed to be delivered by 12th January 2007 along with the other documents - I received this today.

[zootscoot]

Skeleton arguments are generally sent the day before the hearing but some of the items in the skeleton argument should have been sent earlier as they relate to the breakdown of their costs... which is what you asked for initially.

 

It seems they have not given too much thought to this breakdown.

 

Are they really sending a member of staff to individually stamp and hand post each and every letter. Does a member of staff sit and type each letter or are they a pre formatted letter without any reference to your individual circumstances, other than your name and address and caccount number?

 

From the salaries given it looks like it would be 2000 although they could just be mean payers!

 

There is no obligation to go to the Ombudsman before making a claim so that is pure intimidation.

 

Its pretty flimsy stuff really.

 

Go and rip them to shreads in the court room... if they turn up!

 

Best of luck

 

Zoot

[Jacqueline07]

Zoot - thank you so much.

 

I have calmed down now. Looked through my old mortgage stuff. I was already paying 1.25% above the normal base rate as well.

 

I have marked on my sheet all of what you have said (already started) - one question - do building societies pay a bounced direct debit charge. I work for a local government office and on the rare occasion that we get a cheque returned we don't pay a fee?

[zootscoot]

Sorry, I don't know if they have to pay a charge. Although 4.50 seems a strange amount.

[Jacqueline07]

OK - arguments prepared, paperwork marked and ready - feeling good about this and nervous at the same time (is that possible ). Any last minute advice appreciated - court time 1.45 pm this afternoon. Wish me luck!!!

[zootscoot]

Hi Jacqueline,

 

Stay calm and confident, don't let them intimidate you. Stick to your guns! Make sure you are certain of your arguments.

 

Very very best of luck!

 

Zoot

[Jacqueline07]

Okay - just got back and unfortunately the claim was dismissed.

 

I feel that all things equal it went well - however the Dudley were able to justify their charges. The DJ was not happy that I had not received these figures until yesterday as maybe I would have then judged them to be reasonable and not carried on with the action.

 

In saying that the DJ could not accept them as disproportionate as the Dudley had said that what they charge is what they spend (and the DJ had to believe all of the things they listed). He also could not apply Unfair terms regulations as, again, they were not disproportionate.

 

The Dudley represented themselves so I did not feel intimidated and the DJ could not have been nicer, leading me when I was unsure or lost my track!!

 

The file was minus my "bundle" which the DJ apologised for but described the administration of the court system in chaos at the moment.

 

When the DJ dismissed my case he asked if there was anything else - we both said "no" and that was that. So no costs either.

 

Although I lost - I've learned that perhaps (with mortgage companies especially) i should have thought more about what they are actually doing when they apply fees - the DJ applied reasonability - however, the Dudley would not provide that information and thus my action continued. That said, the Dudley are not comparable to the major lending societies (judges words) and that just may be the difference.

 

I would have liked to have won - but I could see where it was heading as soon as the DJ decided the accept their figures. At least this has cost me nothing other than the £30.00 fee, I didn't perhaps argue as eloquently as I would have liked (but will know next time:) ).

Oooh - forgot to say - these were also ALL direct debit returned fees - particularly important for the "work" that had to go into them. No other fees, such as arrears fees. Relevant I think.

 

Thank you to all for your help, particularly Zootscoot.

 

Jackie

[zootscoot]

Hi Jackie,

 

Sorry to hear it didn't go your way. At least its good news on no costs and it seems that it wasn't too daunting experience for you.

 

It seems very similar to Barry's case in that the judge is bound to accept their evidence when given under oath unless you have hard evidence to the contrary. The draft directions are an absolute must.

 

Take care and best wishes

 

Zoot

[mochamoo]

I am sorry to hear your news Jackie.

[mrsfoot]

Jackie

 

I am sorry to hear about your conclusion. It seems a trifle unfair that they left the one piece of evidence that you could have used in order to end this claim to the end. However the one good thing to come out of this is you had no costs to bear. This would have stuck in your throat when you paid it so think of it as a blessing. I know it will be hard at the min to do that, but in time im sure you can use your experience for other matters.

 

Take care and good luck with any other lcaims you have going

 

Mrsfoot