Got CCJ due to council and bank blunder!!- what compo should i ask for?

[jayu619]

Hello!

 

Amazing - I will set about doing a draft letter and post it on here before sending off tomorrow to Emmanuel.

 

In regards to the DD - that was a wrong choice of words - it was meant to be Standing Order. My son initially started to write the email back in January. Sorry for the confusion. No DD involved - just a SO as explained in my posts.

 

Thank you

[BankFodder]

Sorry, that is my mistake. When I said direct debit I think be meant standing order. What interested me was that there was a reference to an old amount. I was wondering whether in fact there had been some kind of increase in the amount which needed to be paid and that the standing order did not originally reflect that. What was meant by

if there is anything that can be done to remove

the CCJ issued in June, even though I was paying the old amount?

[BankFodder]

Hello!

 

Amazing - I will set about doing a draft letter and post it on here before sending off tomorrow to Emmanuel.

 

In regards to the DD - that was a wrong choice of words - it was meant to be Standing Order. My son initially started to write the email back in January. Sorry for the confusion. No DD involved - just a SO as explained in my posts.

 

Thank you

 

don't forget, that there is a slight variation over the issue of whether or not you would be awarded costs if eventually they try to say that they consented. You need to take note of this because at the end of the day it's your case and your risk. I think that there three week delay has negated any element of consent but you are giving them a final chance.

[jayu619]

Ok that made sense.

So that was referring to the £88.96 that I had begun with back in March 2011. The council were referring to that as an old amount. And suggested increasing the amount on SO as there’s building works happening where my flat is located.

 

Either way, I don’t think it matters as at the end of the year, if I underpaid - I always paid a cheque to being account back upto date. Is that correct to assume?

 

Thanks

Jay

[BankFodder]

I'm just searching for some indication that something occurred which might have triggered the bank's incorrect processing of your standing order or the council's incorrect processing of the sum when they received it. For instance if they were now expecting a new amount of money then possibly the old amount of money wasn't correctly allocated. I have no idea why this should mean that there was no reference number – although maybe there was a reference number but if the amount was wrong then for some reason rather it didn't tick the right boxes in their procedure.

 

I have no idea – I'm just struggling for some kind of insight

[jayu619]

Ok understood.

On various calls with Emmanuel - one of the issue was that my SO was being underpaid. It’s happened more so over the past few years but I always received a statement and where I underpaid, I sent a cheque to clear arrears.

 

The issue actually is the fact that they hadn’t received 10 payments in total across 2 periods which really caused the CCJ. If I was in arrears of £1200, had those 10 payments been made with a reference, I would have paid an extra £300 or so to bring my account back upto date (£1200 - £889.60 = £310.40). I hope that made some sense.

 

For 18/19 Service charges, Emmanuel suggested to increase my SO based on the estimated SC for the year ahead.

Edited March 14, 2018 by jayu619

[jayu619]

Hi All

 

Please find attached a copy of the banks letter to me in regards to my complaint:

 

As I have a DSAR open with Lloyds, should I wait until I receive those documents before taking the matter to FoS?

 

I have requested they give me all the info they have

if and when I cancelled and set up a new SO back in AUG 2016 as well as,

all my SO with all details showing for each and every month from Aug 16 to Jan 18 (beneficiary sort code, account # and/or reference).

 

I know £50k is a lot, but I was really angry at the time and wanted to really make them understand was kind of inconvenience it has put me in

 

Also, I'd emailed the solicitors requesting info being held about me this morning

- they replied stating that I have to make this in writing with a £10 fee enclosed.

Should I do this?

 

I plan to write a 7 day time limit letter

- however, as my complaint with the council is currently being investigated under stage 1,

should I wait for their reply which is due to come by no later than March 19th, this coming Monday?

Or should I send the 7 day 'threatening' letter before taking the matter into my own hands tomorrow?

 

I appreciate all of you taking your time to input your thoughts/advice and guidance, I am truly grateful.

 

Jay

Lloyds Bank Complaint_Closed.pdf

[BankFodder]

This is an extraordinary letter. You have redacted the date. What date is it please?

[BankFodder]

Also I had understood from you that the bank had told you that the standing order had been cancelled and then setup again. This is not my reading so far of this letter. My understanding is that they are saying that there has been no modification to the standing order.

 

Although there is a hint of an ambiguity in that they say that the standing order was initially set up without a reference, this cannot be so because my understanding is that you have an unbroken chain of payments – is that correct? Even though some of them were made with no reference.

 

The bank is not saying that there were two standing orders. They seem to have sidestepped the issue that there was a change in the standing order but they are certainly accepting that at some point payments were made without reference.

 

Presumably you have firm evidence of payments over a long period of time which were made with the correct reference.

 

They say that they are unable to tell if they had a reference number on the standing order from the outset – but presumably you must have evidence that they did have because otherwise they would have not been properly allocated by the council.

 

This is to be an admission of some kind of liability here – a very strong admission – that they are prevaricating little bit as to how it happened. However, it seems to me that if you pull this letter together with the payment record to the council made before this problem and then for a period during the problem, it is very difficult to escape the conclusion that the bank somehow incorrectly processed your instructions.

 

What do you like to say about that?

 

I certainly think that you should wait and get all information before starting any further complaints to the ombudsman or anywhere. You need to be completely sure of your ground. It could easily be that the bank will fail to comply fully or at all with your SAR.

 

One thing that puzzles me is your claim apparently of £50,000 compensation. How do you come to that figure? My initial view is that it is absurd. Did you explain how you came to that figure to the bank?

[jayu619]

This is an extraordinary letter. You have redacted the date. What date is it please?

 

Oops, sorry - that was not intentional as I scanned this at home.

But the date is 7th March, but I received the letter this morning through the post.

[jayu619]

Also I had understood from you that the bank had told you that the standing order had been cancelled and then setup again. This is not my reading so far of this letter. My understanding is that they are saying that there has been no modification to the standing order.

 

That is correct - I was told SO was cancelled and a new one setup in Aug 2016. But there has been no modification of any sort since this SO was set up back in March 2011

 

 

Although there is a hint of an ambiguity in that they say that the standing order was initially set up without a reference, this cannot be so because my understanding is that you have an unbroken chain of payments – is that correct? Even though some of them were made with no reference.

Correct - council have confirmed 6 payments with a reference. And no way on earth would I set up a new SO without a reference. That would be absurd.

 

The bank is not saying that there were two standing orders. They seem to have sidestepped the issue that there was a change in the standing order but they are certainly accepting that at some point payments were made without reference.

correct. Their account of the events seem to be muddled and contradictory in my opinion.

 

Presumably you have firm evidence of payments over a long period of time which were made with the correct reference.

Correct

 

They say that they are unable to tell if they had a reference number on the standing order from the outset – but presumably you must have evidence that they did have because otherwise they would have not been properly allocated by the council.

Correct - I've had no issues with payments going through for a number of years.

 

This is to be an admission of some kind of liability here – a very strong admission – that they are prevaricating little bit as to how it happened. However, it seems to me that if you pull this letter together with the payment record to the council made before this problem and then for a period during the problem, it is very difficult to escape the conclusion that the bank somehow incorrectly processed your instructions.

I definitely agree. Should I ask for a confirmation of all my payments going through fine prior to Aug 2016? Will that help my cause?

 

One thing that puzzles me is your claim apparently of £50,000 compensation. How do you come to that figure? My initial view is that it is absurd. Did you explain how you came to that figure to the bank?

Honestly, I was so angry at the point when I gave that figure, I said I don't want a measly £500, I want thousands and if I can, I will claim 100x that amount you offered. I was furious. I know it sounds abit ridiculous.

[BankFodder]

If you are expecting a response to a complaint by the 19th then that is only a few days away so you may as well wait and see what it produces. However, if there is no mention of the set aside then on Monday I think that you should write the letter and tell them that they have seven days to produce evidence of the application – meaning a copy of the document which they have filed with the court in order to remove the judgement. That if you do not receive this within seven days then you will begin your own procedure for the removal of the set-aside without any further notice. Get this letter ready by Sunday and then post it off on Tuesday if you have not received their response on the Monday.

 

In terms of the bank letter I've had an opportunity to think about it and I realise that their position is still that the standing order was set up without a reference. I wonder whether their procedures require that a reference should be included – in which case they are saying that they have failed in their procedures by not insisting on the inclusion of the reference.

 

If their procedures don't insist on a reference then I don't really understand why they are upholding your complaint because I realise that they are have simply said that the standing order never had a reference – but that really shouldn't matter to them and they would not be at fault.

 

If you set up a standing order to a private individual, thence there is certainly no need to include a reference. If you set up a standing order to a business or organisation such as the council then it may be that their system insist on reference. Do you have any idea which this is?

 

Would you like to try setting up another standing order – going through the steps online and see if it insists on a reference. Of course you don't click off the final submission of the standing order. Does this make sense?

[jayu619]

Amazing - I will wait and see what the council say if anything.

I will aim to write the 7 day warning letter tonight and have it ready. May I post here for review?

 

In terms of the bank letter I've had an opportunity to think about it and I realise that their position is still that the standing order was set up without a reference. I wonder whether their procedures require that a reference should be included – in which case they are saying that they have failed in their procedures by not insisting on the inclusion of the reference.

If their procedures don't insist on a reference then I don't really understand why they are upholding your complaint because I realise that they are have simply said that the standing order never had a reference – but that really shouldn't matter to them and they would not be at fault.

From mt understanding, the guy Thomas who was dealing with my complaint, said the bank should have asked if you wanted to place a reference. They didn't in my case so 'put their hands up' for that mistake. I just gave him a no nonsense question: "If I supposedly set up a new SO, why is it that HSBC for example, ask for a reference if I want to transfer £10 to a family/friend, yet Lloyds didn't bother to ask me for a reference on a SO".. And to be clear, my other [main] bank with HSBC, always ask me for a reference as optional.

 

Would you like to try setting up another standing order – going through the steps online and see if it insists on a reference. Of course you don't click off the final submission of the standing order. Does this make sense?

This may sound ridiculous - I never did online banking! I am very old-school in the sense that I go into the branch or do telephone banking. Should I go into branch do you think?

[BankFodder]

When is the SAR disclosure due? I would want to see evidence that the SAR was originally set up in 2011, that it was cancelled in 2016, that it was set up again in 2016, that it was cancelled again in January 2017, that it was set up again in January 2017 (with reference) that it was cancelled again in whenever it was in 2017 and then set up again – no reference and continued that way.

 

That means that we are talking about four separate standing orders.

 

Presumably there should be some trail – and the identity of the person who accepted the standing order forms from you. If you did it over the counter then there must be standing order forms. You might like to go in and find out what form you are required to sign in order to cancel standing order. You may as well also find out what form you need to set up a standing order. See if you can get blank copies of these.

 

As I have said before, I think that your claim for £50,000 discredited your complaint. I think you now need to sit down and in a levelheaded way calculate all of your losses – your actual calculable money losses, and then other losses such as inconvenience – you need to count up the number of hours – and also tell us about your loss of reputation – if any and who would have known about this and how it affected you.

[jayu619]

Hi BankFodder,

 

Here is my letter that I have drafted to send to council. Let me know what you think?

[DRAFT]

Dear Emmanuel/THH,

 

I received a response to my recent complaint regarding a CCJ being issued against me. I was told under stage 1 of the complaints procedure, I would hear a response by 19th March 2018.

 

Unfortunately, I have not received a reply. Nor have I received an indication or proof that an application has been filed with the court to get this CCJ aside.

 

I hereby give you 7 days to produce some sort of evidence indicating an application has been made. Otherwise, I will have no choice but to take the matters into my own hands without any further notice. And will be claiming all costs involved against the council.

 

I would also like to stress that this CCJ must be removed in its entirety as though it never happened.

 

If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address or on 07*********.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Thanks!

Jay

[jayu619]

When is the SAR disclosure due? I would want to see evidence that the SAR was originally set up in 2011, that it was cancelled in 2016, that it was set up again in 2016, that it was cancelled again in January 2017, that it was set up again in January 2017 (with reference) that it was cancelled again in whenever it was in 2017 and then set up again – no reference and continued that way.

Just to clarify - there were 2 SO's in question. First set up in March 2011 with a reference. Then that got cancelled in Aug 2016. At the time of cancellation, another one was set up without a reference. This second SO is active up until now.

Council SAR due 2/4/18

Bank SAR - nothing was said yet, but I phoned them 2 days ago and they confirmed they received it and I'v clarified the exact info I require to which the clerk made notes on my requests. Then their team will send out by post.

 

Presumably there should be some trail – and the identity of the person who accepted the standing order forms from you. If you did it over the counter then there must be standing order forms. You might like to go in and find out what form you are required to sign in order to cancel standing order. You may as well also find out what form you need to set up a standing order. See if you can get blank copies of these.

No problem - I can pop into the branch and look into it.

 

As I have said before, I think that your claim for £50,000 discredited your complaint. I think you now need to sit down and in a levelheaded way calculate all of your losses – your actual calculable money losses, and then other losses such as inconvenience – you need to count up the number of hours – and also tell us about your loss of reputation – if any and who would have known about this and how it affected you.

I fully understand how £50k was ridiculous. But in the moment of frustration, I just thought they were taking the mick with offering £500. They are not the ones suffering from a CCJ with such financial implications, and I do not wish it upon anyone. My credit file has gone down the drain because of it.

My main losses would be the house which was going to cost £500k and then a car on finance of another £25, both of which I could not purchase. I lost about £5k worth of money from work since January 10th. And then I don't know the amount I could quantify for inconvenience.

[BankFodder]

Just to clarify - there were 2 SO's in question. First set up in March 2011 with a reference. Then that got cancelled in Aug 2016. At the time of cancellation, another one was set up without a reference. This second SO is active up until now.

Council SAR due 2/4/18

 

This is becoming maddening and we are now on the fourth page of the thread and instead of becoming clearer, your information is more confusing.

 

Are you now agreeing that there were two standing orders or are you simply reciting what they have told you?

The important element here is – how many standing orders did you setup? Did you cancel one and then set up another?

 

I had understood that you had set up one standing order in 2011 and that you hadn't touched it until you had to go in in 2018 and sort out the reference. So please can we get the story straight because it's impossible to continue like this

[jayu619]

Hi BankFodder

 

Thanks for the message.

I re-read some of my posts from earlier on and I cannot see where the confusion is. I didnt mention 4 SOs - various posts refer to the fact that there were only 2 - one being set up in 2011 Mar. And supposedly that got cancelled in Aug 2016 and a new one setup at the same time.

The issue here is, the payment reference which was not placed when 2nd SO was setup, which relates to payment periods Aug 2016 to Dec 206 with no reference; jan 2017 to Jun 2017, with a reference; and jul 2017 to Dec 2017, with no reference - this is what the council have informed me about. I’ve been clear about the above throughout my posts when there was confusion.

I only ever had 1 SO setup and still do.

According to the bank, I went in Aug 2016 and cancelled my 2011 SO and made a new one without a reference - which is where I went in Jan 2018 to put back on for future payments.

I’ve no reason to go in and change my SO and especially not put a reference because the same SO for the same amount had a reference when I’d first started back in Mar 2011.

 

I hope the above is clearer?

Edited March 16, 2018 by jayu619

[BankFodder]

So once again I understand that you only set up one standing order.

 

In that case you should abandon the idea that there were two standing orders. By adopting their narrative, you are implicitly accepting that there were in fact two standing orders and you immediately implicate yourself in the suspicion that you were the person to have cancelled the first one and set up the second.

 

Your position must be unequivocal that there was only one standing order and it was setup by you in 2011. If there were further cancellations and standing orders then this was some unilateral and unauthorised activity carried out by the bank or its computer and without your instruction.

 

You only gave one instruction. There was only one authorised standing order.

 

Where do I get for standing orders from?

 

One authorised standing order set up in 2011 – and apparently cancelled in 2016 without authority

one unauthorised standing order immediately set up by the bank and without reference number in 2016 and apparently cancelled in January 2017

one unauthorised standing order set up in January 2017 by the bank with a reference number and cancelled a few months later

one unauthorised standing order set up immediately by the bank without reference number which continued until January 2018

 

That means four standing orders – but only one of which was authorised by you.

 

 

Your position is that there was only ever one standing order and all of your correspondence, telephone calls – everything, must strictly maintain that position.

[BankFodder]

Hi BankFodder,

 

Here is my letter that I have drafted to send to council. Let me know what you think?

[DRAFT]

Dear Emmanuel/THH,

 

I received a response to my recent complaint regarding a CCJ being issued against me. I was told under stage 1 of the complaints procedure, I would hear a response by 19th March 2018.

 

Unfortunately, I have not received a reply. Nor have I received an indication or proof that an application has been filed with the court to get this CCJ aside.

 

I hereby give you 7 days to produce some sort of evidence indicating an application has been made. Otherwise, I will have no choice but to take the matters into my own hands without any further notice. And will be claiming all costs involved against the council.

 

I would also like to stress that this CCJ must be removed in its entirety as though it never happened.

 

If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address or on 07*********.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Thanks!

Jay

 

I suggest:

 

I refer to your letter of XXX date in which you admit responsibility on your own behalf and on the behalf of your solicitors for incorrectly addressing important court documents which have in turn led to the unjust issue of a County Court judgement against me.

 

You undertook to have the CC J removed, but despite this I have heard nothing and so far as I'm aware the CC J still in place with the subsequent damage to my credit file.

 

I'm writing to tell you that this delay is a very serious matter and I'm not prepared to wait any longer. If a formal application to the County Court has been made to remove the CC J then I would be grateful if you would let me have a copy of whatever document has been used to begin the procedure. If I do not receive this within seven days then I shall make my own application to have the judgement set aside and of course I will ask that the court orders that you refund me the costs of the application.

 

You should also know that once the CC J has been set aside by the court, I shall require that all trace of this is deleted from my credit file and any other records. If necessary I shall ask the assistance of the Information Commissioner to accomplish this.

 

YS

 

I think this may be a little more assertive then your version. Also I don't see any point in providing them with the phone number. You need everything in writing. Giving them a phone number gives them an opportunity to phone you and to explain why there's going to be a slight delay. You should not brook any delay.

 

If they try to call - refuse to speak and tell them that you want it in writing

[jayu619]

I suggest:

 

 

 

I think this may be a little more assertive then your version. Also I don't see any point in providing them with the phone number. You need everything in writing. Giving them a phone number gives them an opportunity to phone you and to explain why there's going to be a slight delay. You should not brook any delay.

 

Perfect - thanks for your posts BankFodder!

And I’ll use your version.

And definitely assert that only one SO was setup. I see your point there.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I’ll await for the postman this morning to see if I receive anything through the post. I will keep you posted in any case.

[BankFodder]

Have you obtained a copy of the form N244? You need to start preparing.

[jayu619]

I’ve got it open and ready to fill in tonight/over the weekend

For sure I’ll need assistance if that’s ok.

Thank you

[BankFodder]

Question number three:

 

I'm asking the court to set aside the judgement dated XXX as I did not receive any correspondence in respect of this claim. Neither did I receive the claim form. This was due to the negligent handling of the correspondence address by the claimant and their solicitor and they have admitted their error. A communication from the claimant which confirms this is attached.

The claimant has in fact agreed to have the County Court judgement set aside themselves but this was several weeks ago and no action has been taken so I am proceeding to make this application myself in view of the seriousness of the effect of this judgement on my record and my credit file. A communication from the claimant which confirms this is attached. Also I attach a copy of a letter to the claimant giving them notice that I will be applying for a set aside and to which I have had no response.

 

Additionally the money which was being claimed by the claimants had already been paid and the claimants have now admitted that they have my payments and that it has been correctly allocated to my account. Therefore if the claimants decide to proceed with their claim, there is no chance of their success. A copy of a communication from the claimant which confirms this is attached.

 

In view of the fact that this judgement was obtained as a result of an error by the claimant, I also ask that any costs I have incurred including the cost of this application are reimbursed.

 

 

Question four – no

question five – without hearing

question six – put n/a in each box

question seven – put n/a

question eight – District Judge

question nine – claimant

Question 10 – the claimant wrongfully believed that the defendant had failed to make certain standing order payments over a period of time. The claimants instructed their solicitors to issue proceedings but their solicitors sent correspondence and the claim form to the wrong address. The claimant has now admitted the error but although they have agreed to remove the County Court judgement they have failed to do so. The defendant has now been obliged to begin his own procedure to set aside the judgement.

The relevant evidence and admissions from the claimant are attached.

The claimant is fully aware of this application.

[jayu619]

Hello!

 

Just to update:

- no response from the council regarding complaint and stage 1

- I sent an email to Mr Emmanuel on the 14th to which he replied today saying he will ask their solicitor for an update.

 

Should I still go ahead and send that letter to reply within 7 days with some proof of progress or wait for Mr Emmanuel to reply with what he finds out from solicitors?

 

Thanks

Jay