Theft of external car parts in private, residential basement car park - management liable?

[Willeh]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for giving this a read.

 

Please let me know if this is not in the correct sub-forum and I'll flag for it to be moved.

 

I'll try and keep this short and succinct:

 

We have just returned home from our time away in another city for work and we kept our car in the private residential basement car park for our building - key fob / building access is required for entry.

 

We noted that a number of external components had been stripped off our car and taken. The interior was not broken into as far as we could tell. Additionally, the wires to the CCTV unit which overlooks the whole car park had been cut and the unit taken away. The car park itself is quite small - fits about 8 cars and is rectangular in layout.

 

We did what we could on a weekend: informed the police, put up posters and notices around the car park, and spoke to our neighbours. One person reported that the CCTV unit had been missing for more than a month.

 

We also e-mailed management with regards to this footage and to also inform them that the security of this car park is compromised.

 

The question: would 'management' be liable in this incidence?

 

We pay a fairly significant monthly premium to them - £50 (an official letting agent) - in addition to rent, for a parking spot in this car park yet we were not warned to park at our own risk, nor are there any signs to highlight this. Plus no signs to highlight active CCTV monitoring. One would think that for such an additional amount, there would perhaps be more attention to maintaining the security of this car park (occasional checks of CCTV camera for faults, for example).

 

I agree that parking the car down there for 4 weeks without checking it is questionable, but in consideration of the fact that we were away for work and such a car park requires key-fob access, there was a CCTV, it is private and in the basement, this may perhaps be forgivable.

 

We are waiting for management's reply - hopefully by today, but just posting this in preparation for the direction we hope to take.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Willeh

[liverpoolluke]

if your contract is for a parking space then sadly that is what you have got, however if your contract is for a secured parking space covered by CCTV then you havn't had that and it may be questionable

 

it's all going to be down to wording of any contract you may have got

[Willeh]

if your contract is for a parking space then sadly that is what you have got, however if your contract is for a secured parking space covered by CCTV then you havn't had that and it may be questionable

 

it's all going to be down to wording of any contract you may have got

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

I did hope that it would be as simple as the wording on a contract, but we were not presented with one for this parking space.

 

 

We pay our monthly rent to the letting agent (as per the tenancy contract), but add an extra £50 for continued use of the basement car park and possession of the key fob.

 

 

I am not sure if this strengthens / weakens things?

[liverpoolluke]

in theory everything should have a contract or terms especially when demanding money from you

 

somewhere I am guessing you have it in writing that you pay extra for a parking space

 

if it states rent is £x per month and £50 per month extra for a basement car park sadly that is all you are entitled to

 

equally if all it states is basement parking space then they don't have to provide the use of CCTV even if it was working

 

 

I am not a legal professional just pointing out what I have learnt and read from other here

[Willeh]

Thanks again for the reply.

 

 

I have just combed through my e-mail inbox and tenancy contract and nothing in writing re. parking spot T&Cs / a contract. All there is, is a short e-mail chain asking whether or not they have a free spot in the basement car park which went along the lines of:

 

 

"Do you have a spot for parking in the basement?"

"No, but we will let you know when one opens up"

- one month later -

"A parking space has opened up; it's £50 p/m; just add it to the rent you pay and you can pop in to pick up the key fob."

 

 

I agree with everything you have said liverpoolluke and am now unsure if the absence of a contract or anything more detailed takes this to a dead-end.

[liverpoolluke]

would be very difficult to prove anything, I would suggest if anything like this happens in the future you should also amend your standing order referance to rent + parking if possible so you can at least show what you believe you are getting

[Willeh]

would be very difficult to prove anything, I would suggest if anything like this happens in the future you should also amend your standing order referance to rent + parking if possible so you can at least show what you believe you are getting

 

Ah! That's the one thing we did do: our standing order ref since the day we moved in has included rent + parking.

[steampowered]

Is this not covered by your own insurance?

 

If not, this may come down to whether or not the management company was negligent. For example, if you could prove that they knew the CCTV was not working for a substantial period of time and they failed to do anything about it, that may be a route for bringing a claim. If they weren't negligent, then I don't think they will be liable.

[king12345]

Ask the management company if they're covered by insurance for the car park.

Maybe they are and you won't have to claim through your own insurance.

Being a business I would like to think that they are insured, but the wonders of management companies are infinite

[Willeh]

Thanks for the replies both.

 

 

We can indeed claim the cost of repairs via our insurance but in consideration of the thoughts that I) it may raise our premium and II) it is likely that management were negligent in maintenance of security measures, we would rather explore the latter in the first instance.

 

 

Met up with someone from management today and after our review of the CCTV footage, it appears that the camera has been vandalised and removed since the end of March - perhaps longer. We left our car from the end of April to the Saturday just passed so this pre-dates that by a good month.

 

 

He invited me to send another e-mail to further discuss the implications of this, within which I have taken the angle of: £50 per month per parking spot and no CCTV for 2 months for such a high-value, private communal area... observational on-site checks - even if brief and once every 2 / 3 weeks to ensure that these security measures were working (...and present), would surely have been appropriate (again) in consideration of the total monthly premium they collect.

 

 

But I guess the bottom line is that even though it sounds negligent, I am not 100% sure if it actually is if they played the "we didn't know, someone should have told us" card?

[BazzaS]

Who removed the camera?

Who views the images (even if removed by the vandals, should the car park owners have noticed "no image")??

[SabreSheep]

I think the negligence claim here may have legs. At the end of the day there is an implied duty of care and if they were aware the cameras were not functioning for a month then they are negligent, after all they are provided for a reason are they not.

[Willeh]

Who removed the camera?

Who views the images (even if removed by the vandals, should the car park owners have noticed "no image")??

 

We don't actually know but we are assuming the trespassers. As the cameras were down for a month before this incident, we think it may have been repeated visits to the car park - either by the same or different individual(s).

 

When a member of management and I viewed the CCTV footage today, it was quite apparent that this was the first time the error of "no image" was noticed. We certainly would not have spent half an hour going back as far as we could in time in the hope that the "no image" error would disappear and be replaced with actual recording, to determine when it went down. In short: I suspect no one does, as observing a blue screen with "no signal" takes a matter of seconds to raise the flag - which isn't the same as sitting and watching the monitors for hours on end - live, for something suspicious to happen.

 

I think the negligence claim here may have legs. At the end of the day there is an implied duty of care and if they were aware the cameras were not functioning for a month then they are negligent, after all they are provided for a reason are they not.

 

My thoughts too but my slight reservation is that it seemed as if today was the first time management had noticed the cameras were gone and recording had stopped at the end of March - which leads me back to the argument that while it isn't the case that they were aware and did nothing about it, the amount we all pay per month for a spot in the car park would surely warrant perhaps a once-every-three-weeks visit to make sure everything is working.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Willeh

[Nimrod205]

Ask them if they have Public Liability Insurance. They should have it

[liverpoolluke]

would the CCTV camera not have to be listed as part of the parking space contract to ensure any legal action against them

 

I have CCTV around my house, police have knocked and asked for footage not so long ago but were down on the days they wanted due to changing them over, it's nice they are there but not sure if you would have a claim without it being a t & c of the contract

 

I'm just throwing ideas out not a legal professional

[dacouc]

Ask them if they have Public Liability Insurance. They should have it

 

Public Liability is unlikely to cover this unless it had efficacy cover included which is unlikely.