arrows/shoesmiths Claimform - HSBC Credit Card 'debt'

[dx100uk]

why?

don't you recognise the court

[Elliemygsd]

Ahh That was an error I misinterpreted jurisdiction,I thought it meant which county the court was in .

[Elliemygsd]

Does that change the time scales as in how soon I have to submit a defence .

[dx100uk]

no

see if you can go back to MCOL and change it

[Elliemygsd]

Tried to find some way to change it on the MCOL site but there is no option .

[AndyOrch]

Don't worry about it...the court will disregard it knowing you ticked it in error.

 

Andy

[mercyblue]

It maybe possible that you are in a similar position to myself which was resolved in my favour this week

i.e the claim was dismissed. (I will post a fuller account when I receive a copy of the final judgement).

 

However as I knew there never had been an agreement and therefore an s78 request would have been inappropriate.

 

I hope you haven't yet sent an s78 request yet because if you have

you have just acknowledged that one must have existed

 

- otherwise why would you ask for it?

[martin2006]

You ask for it because the burden of proof is on the claimant not the defendant.

[theoldrouge]

It's your statutory right to request a copy

of the agreement on which a creditor is trying to claim monies. Nothing to do with

acknowledging a debt

[mercyblue]

It's your statutory right to request a copy

of the agreement on which a creditor is trying to claim monies. Nothing to do with

acknowledging a debt

 

The debt has already been acknowledged because they were paying it through a dmp, it's a question of an enforceable agreement a quite separate issue.

 

martin2006 you say the burden of proof is on the claimant not true its the burden of probability this is a civil court not a criminal one.

 

By asking via s78 for a cca you must be acknowledging the possibility (probability) of one existing - otherwise why would you ask for it as I said in my previous post.

 

Then the claimants will use the carey judgement Judgment: Carey v HSBC (section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974) - 3417.pdf to blow you away.

[dx100uk]

you always have had a strange way of interpreting something things MB from day one.

[mercyblue]

Strange dx? I don't see anything I have posted here strange at all. I have said the burden of proof is much lower in a civil court than a criminal one there is no "beyond reasonable doubt" in a civil case you merely need to "prove" that if something most likely happened then it did which I happened to call probability. Nothing strange there.

This actually helped me in winning my case this week as the court was quite willing to accept that hsbc at the time would issue a credit card without any agreement whatsoever.

 

The thread seems to be suggesting using a defence of there is no agreement and that an s78 request will prove it. It won't the claimant will use the carey judgement to take a bazooka to that if that is your only argument.

Imagine the following scenario in court "So mr defendant I see you made an s78 request for a copy of your agreement so you accept the possibility that one must have existed in order for you to ask for a copy of it? How are you going to answer that? Then I would just cite carey vs hsbc and job done.

 

I would say dx that rather than strange I hold more realistic views and I am not in "la la land". I do think sometimes dx you come across as in an ivory tower and not realistic as what happens at the coal face to use a euphemism. So I do expect you will find some of my posts are somewhat negative, that's fine I don't mind been a bit of a devil's advocate.

 

I will however be posting the results of my successful outcome this week at some point so you won't find that one negative!

 

I do think it is useful to sometimes show a less rosy outlook when warranted - which is how this post should be viewed.

[martin2006]

Possibility and probabilty are two very different things MB

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

The methods have worked for thousands so far.

[Elliemygsd]

Hi

Thank you for the above comments, I appreciate all advice and am particularly interested in others similar experience.

Please don't turn the thread into an argument as this is a time of great stress for me.

 

Mercyblue did you actually get to the stage of attending court and defending this in person,

my intention is to get this thrown out if possible long before that stage.

i would be interested in reading your full account thanks

 

Martin I have already asked for the s78 but I know they will not provide me with one.

My original debt management company asked for it I still have all the correspondence

and replys along with the very badly forged copy they tried to use.

 

I have no experience of civil court however have worked in the criminal court system which seems a lot simpler.

I now need to prepare my defence I believe I have a limited number of words I can use on the MCOL system 122 !

 

 

My aim is to get this thrown out, or delayed as long as possible so I would appreciate help

with the wording if anyone has submitted a similar defence and has examples.

 

 

I understand if I put the right argument forward the court will ask the claimant to provide enough proof for it to go ahead.

The original claim is dated the 25th Feb so I have approx two weeks to send my defence. Thanks everyone

[dx100uk]

you've sent the cca

without it they cant progress

and prob wont. or they'll let it get stayed

 

all you need is the std no paperwork/holding defence

 

which is on hundreds of like claims here already.

 

use the search cag box of the top red toolbar

 

type in

arrows/shoesmiths Claimform - Credit Card 'debt'

 

 

and get reading

[theoldrouge]

Hi

Thank you for the above comments, I appreciate all advice and am particularly interested in others similar experience.

Please don't turn the thread into an argument as this is a time of great stress for me.

 

Mercyblue did you actually get to the stage of attending court and defending this in person,

my intention is to get this thrown out if possible long before that stage.

i would be interested in reading your full account thanks

 

Martin I have already asked for the s78 but I know they will not provide me with one.

My original debt management company asked for it I still have all the correspondence

and replys along with the very badly forged copy they tried to use.

 

I have no experience of civil court however have worked in the criminal court system which seems a lot simpler.

I now need to prepare my defence I believe I have a limited number of words I can use on the MCOL system 122 !

 

 

My aim is to get this thrown out, or delayed as long as possible so I would appreciate help

with the wording if anyone has submitted a similar defence and has examples.

 

 

I understand if I put the right argument forward the court will ask the claimant to provide enough proof for it to go ahead.

The original claim is dated the 25th Feb so I have approx two weeks to send my defence. Thanks everyone

Helping on behalf of a relative

I have obtained discontinuance of the claim

on three separate occasions during the last four months

all at the disclosure stage due to the claimants

inability to supply the requisite paperwork

Just follow the tried and tested procedures

[mercyblue]

I don't think any of us want to turn this thread into an argument I certainly don't. I hope we all understand you are in a very difficult situation considering your livelihood is potentially at stake.

 

Yes I did attend court and yes the claim was dismissed and it did pertain to an hsbc card albeit from a year earlier to yours.

I am somewhat reluctant to post full details until I get a copy of the judgement which I don't expect till next week.

 

The case was about was there ever an agreement, which there wasn't which actually is 100% true hsbc just sent me it when I opened an account with them. As such I never sent an s78 request why would I request to see something that never existed in the first place? The claimants did try to say a document they provided initially calling it something else suddenly the same document became a reconstituted agreement but because I hadn't asked for an s78 not reconstituted in that sense but in a more general sense by then they were floundering and the judge actually admonished them for using reconstituted in that way.

 

So sadly what dx has posted saying that without the cca they cant progress of course they can how else could I show in court that there was no cca if they couldn't progress.

 

To my mind by making a s78 request you have admitted one must have existed and the fact that you say they provided a badly forged copy isn't going anywhere you will find its covered by the carey judgement - you may find it outrageous that they can effectively make up an agreement nevertheless the judgement has been made. I do actually strongly recommend you read the carey judgement I posted a link to it earlier its 59 pages but it doesn't really start for a few so about 50 pages really.

 

I am really struggling to find something to use as your defence poc's do tend to be somewhat vague so depending on the wording yes you probably could use some sort of "holding defence" and it would probably be stayed for some time but don't forget your paying (if you loose of course) 8% interest on the amount claimed which is £2 a day on nine grand.

 

Don't believe either that they won't pursue it mine was for less than yours and they did.

 

I'm sorry I cant be more positive but that's the reality of my experience.

[dx100uk]

well if you didn't send them a CCA request

you cant use a defence that puts them to strict proof to prove their claim.

so that's why you had issues....?

 

 

anyway

the OP will quite quickly see the hundreds of stayed or discontinued claims hereon CAG already

that have resulted from the success of using the no paperwork defence/holding defence

their call.

 

 

nuff said

[mercyblue]

Well all I can say is so far no one has provided the OP with any defence against the carey judgement

maybe somebody can think of one because I cant.

 

dx you said in post #40 "you've sent the cca without it they cant progress and prob wont. or they'll let it get stayed"

 

which makes no sense clearly they can continue without a cca as they did in my case

although then you say they prob wont which is somewhat odd considering you have just said they cant??

 

Having the claim stayed at £60 a month till they apply for summary judgement, doesn't seem like a result to me.

[AndyOrch]

Interest is irrelevant until the claim is actually adjudged...it is merely speculative.

 

Mercey perhaps update your own thread with the events of your hearing rather than causing unnecessary distress/doubt for others who are currently going through the same process..if they actually do ever get to trial.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[mercyblue]

Interest is irrelevant until the claim is actually adjudged...it is merely speculative.

 

Mercey perhaps update your own thread with the events of your hearing rather than causing unnecessary distress/doubt for others who are currently going through the same process..if they actually do ever get to trial.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Its not my intention to cause distress

I am merely pointing out an alternative way events may unfold.

 

 

Would it not be more distressing to be lulled into a false sense of security

then suddenly find themselves in court without a credible defence?

 

You can call interest irrelevant if you want

I was merely pointing out that on a unresolved case interest would be £720 in a year on the amount involved,

 

 

the OP may consider that relevant if they want to attempt a settlement,

and that a stayed claim hasn't just gone away.

[Elliemygsd]

Hi all

Just a quick update ,

 

I acknowledged the claim on Thursday the 10th

 

the original court papers issued on the 25th Feb

 

if I count the plus five days this means the the 1st of march plus 28days to submit my defence.

 

I would like to do it well in advance of this date

 

however. I posted the CCA request and the cpr31.14 recorded on Friday.

 

How long should I wait before completing my defence on the MCOL site

 

. I was thinking deadline the 22rd march to be on the safe side, as this is 27 days after the issue date not counting the five days?

 

Do I have to wait for there response any set amount of time .

Thanks

[dx100uk]

Def due by 4pm Mon 28th

 

You file def regardless

 

Dx

[martin2006]

Its a minor point but i make 33 days to tues 29th as its a leap year

[dx100uk]

The date on a claim form is day 1 of the count