Property law - can anyone help with satellite dishes and trespass?

[cookie_monster]

Incidentally, even if you have lost the right to bring an action for trespass, because you are still within your 12 years then I think that you would still have a right to implement a self-help solution, which is to simply remove the dish and return it to the owner.

 

It would then be up to the owner to try and reinstall it and of course, that would then begin a new three-year period trespass.

 

Thanks BankFodder for your extremely helpful advice. We have been too relaxed about it I agree - we have a busy life with 2 small children and conflict is never a nice thing so it really just slipped down the list of things to sort out and time flew by. I had hoped that a reasonable neighbour would do the right thing. But lesson learned.

 

My neighbour insists there is no other position on his property where the dish could be placed. Which is ridiculous. We also have a sky dish, but on the rear of our property. I think the sky fitter just went for the simplest installation - I'm pretty appalled that Sky would fit a dish over my property without my consent, but it's a pointless exercise raising it with Sky.

 

All I really want to do is be sure I can remove the dish and stay on the right side of the law. I think this would be the best way forward.

 

My only worry about removing the dish would be what we are supposed to do about the cables attached to the dish. If we remove the dish, that would leave approx 4m of cabling unconnected with the end connections exposed and presumably potentially still connected to a power source. This would seem to be a bit of a safety risk. So would we need to do something to make the cables safe?

[king12345]

Thanks BankFodder for your extremely helpful advice. We have been too relaxed about it I agree - we have a busy life with 2 small children and conflict is never a nice thing so it really just slipped down the list of things to sort out and time flew by. I had hoped that a reasonable neighbour would do the right thing. But lesson learned.

 

My neighbour insists there is no other position on his property where the dish could be placed. Which is ridiculous. We also have a sky dish, but on the rear of our property. I think the sky fitter just went for the simplest installation - I'm pretty appalled that Sky would fit a dish over my property without my consent, but it's a pointless exercise raising it with Sky.

 

All I really want to do is be sure I can remove the dish and stay on the right side of the law. I think this would be the best way forward.

 

My only worry about removing the dish would be what we are supposed to do about the cables attached to the dish. If we remove the dish, that would leave approx 4m of cabling unconnected with the end connections exposed and presumably potentially still connected to a power source. This would seem to be a bit of a safety risk. So would we need to do something to make the cables safe?

 

You don't have to worry about safety of the cables.

They don't carry live electricity so they're safe to handle and even leave exposed.

IMO the dish belongs to sky, not the neighbour, so I would contact sky and give them 28 days to remove it.

After that you tell them (in writing) that you will remove the dish yourself and send it to them or even better keep it for a limited amount of time available for collection.

[Mr.P]

IMO the dish belongs to sky, not the neighbour, so I would contact sky and give them 28 days to remove it.

After that you tell them (in writing) that you will remove the dish yourself

 

A word of caution if the OP decides to remove the offending dish: You could leave yourself open to a prosecution for criminal damage.

 

Contact the local planning department and see what they have to say on the subject. You may find that they can issue an enforcement notice if any rules have been breached. Failing that, go after Sky pointing out that they do not have consent to access their equipment from your property.

[obiter dictum]

Theoretically the owner of land (a house is land) owns the airspace above their property all the way up for ever. Anything/anyone that infringes this airspace is liable for trespass, so could be sued for damages or for an injunction forcing it to be removed. In practice this is limited by case law and statute so, for example, you cannot prevent planes overflying you land and utility companies can hang overhead cables.

 

But fixed objects on neighbouring land that overhang your property are still a trespass and you can take action, and could well win. Practically speaking, you need to decide if you really want to have a dispute with your neighbours over this.

 

Anyone coming onto your land is also a trespass, so the installer's trespassed when they fitted the dish. There are some statutory rules that give property owners the right to use neighbouring land when necessary for maintenance of their property, but I'm not sure if fitting a TV dish would be allowed under these rules.

 

Either way, the problem with suing for trespass is that you probably won't get much benefit even if you win. You are entitled to damages, but only for any loss suffered. If the installer did not cause you a loss then there cannot be any damages. Similarly, unless the overhanging dish is causing a loss you won't get anything. You could get an injunction for the dish to be moved, but even that is not certain, because injunctions are discretionary and will only be used if it is "equitable" to do so. If there is no damage then why is it fair to ask it to be moved?

 

You remove someones property or damage it in any way you will be asking for trouble without the relevant prior authorisation or consent. You may find yourself being arrested on suspicion of criminal damage. The very least you will need is something official such as a improvement notice from the Local Authority or an order from the County Court. For people to state "just remove it yourself" is irresponsible and questionable without following correct procedure.

Edited November 8, 2015 by obiter dictum

[renegadeimp]

Personally id just take the easy way out. Simply talk calmly to them and say, to avoid all arguments both now and the future, why not just arrange with sky to move the dish to another wall. As long as the dish points to the satellite, they can have no argument against it. Saves all the hassle and possible harrassment/legal threats if you remove the dish yourself.

[cookie_monster]

Personally id just take the easy way out. Simply talk calmly to them and say, to avoid all arguments both now and the future, why not just arrange with sky to move the dish to another wall. As long as the dish points to the satellite, they can have no argument against it. Saves all the hassle and possible harrassment/legal threats if you remove the dish yourself.

 

This is exactly what we have done and why the issue has lingered for so long. Our neighbours refuse to re-site the dish.

[cookie_monster]

A word of caution if the OP decides to remove the offending dish: You could leave yourself open to a prosecution for criminal damage.

 

Contact the local planning department and see what they have to say on the subject. You may find that they can issue an enforcement notice if any rules have been breached. Failing that, go after Sky pointing out that they do not have consent to access their equipment from your property.

 

Thanks for the advice. I did get in touch with Sky when this issue first came up and again last week when there was evidence they had once again trespassed on my property. As you would expect they were unhelpful, denied any liability and referred me to my neighbour as they were acting under his direction and he had authorised the location of the dish and confirmed the appropriate consents to access our property were in place. They refused to even log a complaint from me.

[cookie_monster]

You remove someones property or damage it in any way you will be asking for trouble without the relevant prior authorisation or consent. You may find yourself being arrested on suspicion of criminal damage. The very least you will need is something official such as a improvement notice from the Local Authority or an order from the County Court. For people to state "just remove it yourself" is irresponsible and questionable without following correct procedure.

 

The law just seems completely back to front on this point if that's true.

 

I have no intention of damaging my neighbours property so for me to be in trouble for causing criminal damage seems perverse. So this would mean a neighbour can install whatever they like on the wall without my consent and then repeatedly trespass on my property to access the installation and if after reasonable efforts to resolve the issue the neighbour refuses to act, I would be the one in trouble for removing the offending item from trespassing on my property. Bizarre.

 

Can anyone explain why a satellite dish is any different to a tree overhanging my property?

[obiter dictum]

No a neighbour cannot do that as trespass is still trespass

 

What you do is ask him to remove or re-site the dish. If he fails to comply you send him a letter before action stating you will seek an order in the County Court and claim costs for compliance, or you submit a complaint to the Local Authority

 

With either option success is not guaranteed

[king12345]

I don't understand how taking the dish down could be classed as criminal damage.

It's only held by 4 bolts that can be easily unscrewed without damage.

The cables come off by releasing the connector's screws.

If everything is supported by video taken when the dish is removed, no claim for damage would stand.

[Surfer01]

You don't have to worry about safety of the cables.

They don't carry live electricity so they're safe to handle and even leave exposed.

IMO the dish belongs to sky, not the neighbour, so I would contact sky and give them 28 days to remove it.

After that you tell them (in writing) that you will remove the dish yourself and send it to them or even better keep it for a limited amount of time available for collection.

 

That is incorrect because if you short the inner core and the outside braiding you may cause a short in the Sky digibox. There is a smal current flowing as that is how the LNB on the satellite dish is powered. If the OP shorts the cable then the OP may be liable to replace the digibox if it is damaged.

BTW when you have a Sky dish fitted, one of the questions from Sky is whether you have the LL permission to fit the Sky dish. Maybe a way around this is to contact Sky and ask them why their technician trespassed on yoru property with out your permission as you are the LL of your property. Secondly why have they placed a Sky dish overhanging your property. Sky will then probably relocate the Sky dish saving every one a hassle, however you need tow rite to someone senior in Sky and I am sure someone reading this will have the email address of the head honcho for installations etc.

[king12345]

That is incorrect because if you short the inner core and the outside braiding you may cause a short in the Sky digibox.

 

How likely is that to happen???

The inner core is surrounded by a plastic sleeve of 4mm and the outer is a flimsy mesh.

Safe to cut, touch and disconnect.

If you want to be 100% covered you could disconnect the inner core, tape over it and then disconnect the rest, but that's overkill imo

[obiter dictum]

And throughout this you are encouraging someone to commit a Criminal offence by interfering with property not belonging to that person or without prior consent

 

Criminal Attempts Act 1981 will probably cover this

[BankFodder]

That is incorrect because if you short the inner core and the outside braiding you may cause a short in the Sky digibox. There is a smal current flowing as that is how the LNB on the satellite dish is powered. If the OP shorts the cable then the OP may be liable to replace the digibox if it is damaged.

BTW when you have a Sky dish fitted, one of the questions from Sky is whether you have the LL permission to fit the Sky dish. Maybe a way around this is to contact Sky and ask them why their technician trespassed on yoru property with out your permission as you are the LL of your property. Secondly why have they placed a Sky dish overhanging your property. Sky will then probably relocate the Sky dish saving every one a hassle, however you need tow rite to someone senior in Sky and I am sure someone reading this will have the email address of the head honcho for installations etc.

 

Yes, I think that this might be quite an interesting approach. It's not guaranteed to get you the results you want, but on the other hand I think that by officially involving sky and informing them that regardless of the instructions they receive from your neighbour, it was still without authority and they were trespassing, might the very least stir the pot up a bit and cause extra problems.

 

I think that you need to start raking it up from all sides.

 

As far as taking your own self-help solution and removing the dish, you are fully entitled to do this. It's all about abating a nuisance, or taking reasonable steps to prevent further trespass.

 

I'm very sorry to read the kind of advice that you are receiving from obiter dictum. Most of it is wrong and quite fanciful.

 

Of course the only thing is that you need to be certain is that you are in the right to remove the item. If it did happen to be ancillary to the structure, then you would be in the wrong and you would not be able to plead that you were abating a nuisance or terminating a trespass. As far as I can see, that is the only risk you take. It is easily resolved by taking legal advice. Frankly I doubt very much whether the satellite dish is an ancillary structure.

If you do decide to remove the dish, then I would make a proper appointment with an engineer to do it, and I would write a formal letter delivered by recorded post to your neighbour telling him that this is what is going happen and the date on which it is going to happen.

 

I would make sure that you are present and also maybe one or two other people with you to prevent your neighbour entering onto your property to interfere.

 

I would also inform your neighbour that if he attempted to interfere at all and trespass on your property that you would call the police on the basis that he was causing a breach of the peace. I think that you need to be very clear about everything.

 

I would also make sure that somebody was recording the whole thing on video. I would also make sure that everybody understood that they were not to get involved in any way other than simply to witness what was going on and maybe somebody to establish "a presence" – but no more than that.

 

At the first sign of any problems I would call the police immediately. I would prepare a copy of the letter et cetera to give to the police the moment they arrived. I would also make sure the police understood that everything was being recorded including their visit.

 

The second thing to do is to bring to an end the progress of the 12 year passage of time which would result in you losing your rights altogether.

 

Adverse possession occurs when something is done to your land which is against your will and it continues for 12 years. For instance, I know some people who have pushed their garden fence back to 3 feet onto railway property. They did this about 10 or 11 years ago and nobody has realised that it has happened. I'm quite certain that at the end of the 12th year, they will go down to the land registry and register the new boundaries of their property and the railway company will be unable to do anything.You can bring this period to an end by authorising it in some way.

 

I would suggest that you try negotiating with your neighbour and say to them that you will withdraw your objections to the existence of the satellite dish for the next six months on the condition that they are prepared to negotiate and to explore solutions with you.

 

If you can get them to agree to that in writing then for the next six months the satellite dish will be in place with the authority. If after the six months has expired, you renew your objections, the 12 year period starts to run again. This is a bit devious, but I think that you need to be very aware of the dangers of adverse possession. You have already lost your right to bring an action for nuisance. You have already lost your right to bring an action for trespass on the original dish and now you are pretty well two thirds of the way through to losing all of your rights over your land completely.

 

I'm interested to hear about the positioning of your satellite dish. I think that I would also bring in a satellite installation engineer to look at the problem and to give you a view as to whether the satellite dish could be fitted on the back of your neighbour's property and out of your way. If you find that this is completely possible – then this is the suggest that you should be making.

 

I think that if you made that suggestion and it was refused and then you began legal action, the prospect of a successful action against your neighbour might well make him see sense and realise that it would be a lot cheaper simply to change the position of the aerial.

 

I have no idea about whether there is electrical current passing through the cables. I can scarcely imagine that there isn't at least some minute current which although might not represent a personal danger, as to cause damage to the equipment if it was sorted out.

 

While you're seeing your installation engineer about the repositioning of your neighbours aerial, I think you should also ask him about removing the aerial and what it would cost.

 

You haven't answered as to whether in fact everything has been conducted in writing with your various neighbours? This is an important point.

 

Please answer

 

In case you haven't been putting things in writing, it's about time you started. I think that you need to tighten up your attitude to what's been happening here because I think that you bear some kind responsibility for them extent of the mess that it all is. Sorry.

[cookie_monster]

You haven't answered as to whether in fact everything has been conducted in writing with your various neighbours? This is an important point.

 

Please answer

 

In case you haven't been putting things in writing, it's about time you started. I think that you need to tighten up your attitude to what's been happening here because I think that you bear some kind responsibility for them extent of the mess that it all is. Sorry.

 

I totally accept that our lack of formal action wasn't the best path in hindsight BankFodder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though and at the time I truly hoped/believed that our neighbours would be reasonable without us need in to take a formal route. I was also wary of creating a formal dispute that would need to be declared when the time comes to sell our house. No excuse I know, but I wasn't actively being pathetic, just trying to be reasonable.

 

The first bit of written evidence we have is from last week, when I dropped a note through my neighbours door. Their written response clearly acknowledges they were first made aware of our feelings 3 years ago though. So that's all I have.

 

We will be moving forward by putting everything in writing.

[BankFodder]

I suggest that you start off by writing down the entire story. This would be the basis of a letter which you would send to your neighbour so that he understood exactly how it has all come about.

 

I think the you need to emphasise that although nothing has been expressed in writing, your neighbour fully knew that there was an ongoing dispute and that you objected to the satellite dish.

 

Explain exactly what has happened so far and how it has all come about. Restate your objections now and tell them that nothing has changed.

 

Tell them that you are open to exploring possible solutions with them and if they will agree to discuss and exchange ideas in writing about this that you will cease your objections to the satellite dish for the next six months. If they agree with this then this at the very least will halt the progress of the 12 years of adverse possession.

 

If you refuses to agree to this then you know that you have hit a brick wall and you will have to start taking your own action

 

If you agree to this, then I suggest that you ask him whether he has considered siting the dish elsewhere for instance at the back of the house and also tell him that in the interests of keeping good neighbours, you would be prepared to explore this with him and also you would be prepared to make a contribution to the re-siting of the dish. Tell him that you are proceeding anyway to make an appointment for an installer to visit you to give you his view on it and as to whether or not it could be recited on his house and if that would produce good reception for him.

 

Once again, assure him of your utmost good faith your best intentions in this and that you are very sorry that he is has walked into the middle of an argument which really is an argument that belong to your previous neighbour.

 

I suggest that you put this letter to his door and ask him for a reply within three days. If he does not give you a reply then I suggest that you send in the same letter by recorded delivery.

 

Then you make your appointment with the install anyway and get his opinion. Get his opinion in writing and also a quote for the work. You may have to pay for this if it comes to legal action then you may be to get the money back – but don't bank on it. On the other hand I don't expect it's very expensive and anyway I think that is something that you need to do.

 

Let us know what happens

[BankFodder]

And throughout this you are encouraging someone to commit a Criminal offence by interfering with property not belonging to that person or without prior consent

 

Criminal Attempts Act 1981 will probably cover this

 

I'm sorry to respond once again in this way to your suggestions. This is wrong.

 

There has to be dishonest intent for criminal damage. There doesn't appear to me to be any basis for any dishonest intent. If you see it then maybe you can tell me where it is.

[obiter dictum]

Mens rea with the acteus reus

 

And Criminal damage was not mentioned, only criminal attempts by one or more persons

[BankFodder]

Mens rea with the acteus reus

 

And Criminal damage was not mentioned, only criminal attempts by one or more persons

 

Sorry but this is extremely unhelpful

[obiter dictum]

Nope

 

I referenced Criminal Attempts Act in my last post

 

That is in relation to present, not past tense which is now irrelevant

 

Note the emphasis on MAY? Anyway on my past tense post, subjective

[Dookist]

In a nutshell I object to the placing of a neighbours satellite dish overhanging my drive. The dish is attached to my neighbours side wall, which forms the boundary between our properties but totally overhangs our drive adjacent to the neighbours wall.

 

The biggest bones of contention are the tendancy for birds to sit on the dish and crap on our car/drive and often finding workmen on my drive maintaining the dish/cables with absolutely no notice or warning.

 

My neighbour insists we do not have a right to ask him to move the dish. His view is that he has a legal right to place ancillary structures on his wall and similarly has a right to access my drive to access his 'ancillary structures'.

 

Does this sound correct? Is there really nothing I can do to get the dish moved?

 

 

Definitely trespass… you own the space above your land… right up to the clouds, and beyond apparently!! Although you should have tried to get it removed within 3 years of it being set up and if you touch it, you can be liable for criminal damage…. Mad or what?!

[king12345]

I think bankfodder advice is the best compromise.

After you inform sky that you'll be taking the dish down and then get a technician to do so, all video recorded, there will be no way for anyone to accuse you of having done anything wrong.

It will cost you a few pounds for the technician, but well worth it.

As said, it's a very simple job that can be completed in less than 10 minutes, so shouldn't cost too much.

Go for it.

[BankFodder]

As I said, prepare carefully.

 

Check its status as an ancillary to the structure

Write to your neighbour with history. Propose discussions.

Depending on his response, write to him and give him fair warning that it is coming down.

Get installer to give opinion about re-siting and depending upon your neighbour's response earlier, get installer to take it down. Video whole thing. Warn installer that on no account must it be damaged. Take photos of it when removed. Pack it carefully in a box and return it to neighbour.

 

Then give neighbour formal warning that any further trespass will result in a complaint to the police and a civil action for an injunction.

 

Only make this threat if you are prepared to follow it through. Be as good as your word - don't bluff or else you will lose the battle.

[cookie_monster]

Thanks everyone for your input and advice - I'm really grateful to you all

 

I think my plan is as follows:

- seek legal advice on the status of the structure (ancillary?)

- have a word with the local planning team, just in case there is anything I could raise on the position of the dish.

- write to sky to complain that they (or their agents) have trespassed and asking them to remove the items installed without permission

- put a chronology together to send next door - depending on the outcome on ancillary, potentially proposing withdrawing my objection for a limited period of time to allow for discussion and asking them whether they accept that.

- separately consult a suitably qualified installation fitter on the signal at the rear of the property

 

I will let you know where I get to with all of that.

 

Just one more question - do you think a dish installer would be prepared to remove it? If it were me I would see it as someone else's property and I wouldn't want to get involved.

[BankFodder]

 

Just one more question - do you think a dish installer would be prepared to remove it? If it were me I would see it as someone else's property and I wouldn't want to get involved.

Cross that when you get to it. I'm sure you will get someone to do it - but it might be necessary to get the opinion and the removal done by different people so that they don't appreciate the issue in hand