Northern Rail Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit - Advice Needed

[BewareofFire]

Hi all hope you are well.

 

Today I received a letter from Northern Rail's Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit.

 

It's regarding the end of July when I traveled from Hadfield to Glossop by train.

 

 

The ticket office was closed, and the ticket machine only accepts card.

 

 

I was carrying cash and fully intended to buy a ticket.

 

 

When I cannot get a ticket in this situation I simply get one in Glossop.

 

 

When I got off the train I saw two northern rail uniformed staff, I approached them to get a ticket.

 

 

At this point they told me I had committed an offence and they took my details.

I was literally asking them to pay as I figured they must have the ticket machine!

 

On XX date you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of railway regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations in respect to this matter, we would like to give the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the etc etc

 

As you will appreciate, this could be a serious matter. 14 days to respond or legal action etc

 

Should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to fines imposed by the court there will be an application for a minimum of £150 for our costs.

Just wondering if I have a leg to stand on? Any advice will be appreciated.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi all hope you are well.

 

Today I received a letter from Northern Rail's Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit.

 

It's regarding the end of July when I traveled from Hadfield to Glossop by train.

 

 

The ticket office was closed, and the ticket machine only accepts card.

 

 

I was carrying cash and fully intended to buy a ticket.

 

 

When I cannot get a ticket in this situation I simply get one in Glossop.

 

 

When I got off the train I saw two northern rail uniformed staff, I approached them to get a ticket.

 

 

At this point they told me I had committed an offence and they took my details.

I was literally asking them to pay as I figured they must have the ticket machine!

 

Just wondering if I have a leg to stand on? Any advice will be appreciated.

 

My local station where FGW services runs only has a ticket office open at peak times, ticket machine often not working and you can buy tickets from the guard on the train. If the guard does not do this, you can pay at the station on arrival. No big issue, even though it says on the byelaws that you should have a ticket before boarding.

 

Suggest a full letter of reply explaining everything. Why you did not have the opportunity of buying a ticket until you reached Glossop. Send recorded delivery or at least get proof of posting.

[andydd]

Doesn't sound right to me, there surely has to be facilities to buy a ticket. Does the station have a permit to travel machine ?

 

Im sure one of the rail experts here can give advice on the complicated byelaws. Does a penalty fare scheme operate on this line ?, it is quite rare for TOCs to prosecute unless there is very clear evidence that the user intended to evade the fare.

 

Contact Passenger Focus, I have found them to be very helpful and they can often put pressure on TOC's if they believe an innocent person is being forced to pay a fine/risks prosecution. http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/

 

Check out their 'Ticket To Ride' 2015 reports (links here - http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/research/key-research-publications) this deals with commuters targeted unfairly and has very interesting reading, especially regarding that all ticketless passengers should be dealt with consistently and fairly.

[Old-CodJA]

Forgetting the internet as an advance purchase tool there are generally three opportunities to pay and obtain a ticket in situations such as that described and there is a strict liability requirement for the traveller to obtain a ticket at the FIRST opportunity:

 

1. The Ticket office. The intending traveller should always use the ticket office where provided in order to ensure that they get the cheapest ticket valid for what they want to do. If this is closed or a sign is exhibited advising travellers to use an alternative option the traveller should follow this advice. If a working self-service machine is provided, the traveller should use it.

2. Ticket Vending Machine. If this machine takes cash & card payments, not buying a ticket generally constitutes a Byelaw offence (18.1), but if the machine is not working (the company will know this because they are monitored for availability) or, it is a card only machine and you do not have a payment card or wish to use cash, then you should pay the staff on train at the first opportunity.

 

3. The conductor/guard or revenue staff on train. If you see the staff on train it is your responsibility to declare your journey and pay your fare. There is a well tried and tested Appeal Court judgment concerning the traveller who could have got a ticket, but gets on a train intending to pay the fare only if asked to do so. (Corbyn 1978.)

 

What station did you board the train at and at what time of day? Did you see the guard whilst on train please?

 

 

Given the answers to those three points we may be able to help with suggestions of what to say in any letter to the TOC.

[BewareofFire]

Thanks for the replies. I'll read through the links and make sure to use recorded delivery too.

 

Forgetting the internet as an advance purchase tool there are generally three opportunities to pay and obtain a ticket in situations such as that described and there is a strict liability requirement for the traveller to obtain a ticket at the FIRST opportunity:

What station did you board the train at and at what time of day? Did you see the guard whilst on train please?

 

Given the answers to those three points we may be able to help with suggestions of what to say in any letter to the TOC.

 

Good points, ironically I was carrying a ticket I had bought online, for an upcoming journey.

 

I boarded the train at Hadfield, the ticket machine only takes card and I was only carrying cash, the ticket office was closed. I can't remember the exact time but it was around mid-day and before peak time for certain. I didn't see the guard on the train, which is why I went directly to the staff I saw when leaving the train at Glossop.

 

There was another lady who had the same problem, I presume the guard didn't have enough time to make it down the train as it's only a short ride.

[Old-CodJA]

I boarded the train at Hadfield, the ticket machine only takes card and I was only carrying cash, the ticket office was closed. I can't remember the exact time but it was around mid-day and before peak time for certain.

 

 

Sorry, a few more questions that will help.

 

You say that the ticket office at Hadfield was closed, but you travelled around mid-day.

 

Was there any sign displayed in the ticket office window at all?

 

The reason I ask is that on weekdays the ticket office at Hadfield is normally open from just before 6 a.m. until after 7 p.m.

If it was closed for some unusual reason the TOC will have a record confirming this.

 

What happened on arrival at Glossop? You have said that you 'saw staff when leaving the train at Glossop', but where were they, were they on the platform or at one of the two station exits?

[BewareofFire]

Sorry, a few more questions that will help.

 

You say that the ticket office at Hadfield was closed, but you travelled around mid-day.

 

Was there any sign displayed in the ticket office window at all?

 

The reason I ask is that on weekdays the ticket office at Hadfield is normally open from just before 6 a.m. until after 7 p.m.

If it was closed for some unusual reason the TOC will have a record confirming this.

 

What happened on arrival at Glossop? You have said that you 'saw staff when leaving the train at Glossop', but where were they, were they on the platform or at one of the two station exits?

 

No problem

 

Yes there was a sign up at the Hadfield ticket office saying that the office was closed for 20 minutes or so. I presume most people didn't get a ticket and that's why the guard never made it to me.

 

There's only one exit at Glossop, when I got off the train I saw the staff in front of me walking towards the exit. They may have even got off the same train, but I can't say for sure. I followed them and said I needed a ticket, that's when they told me they were there to catch people avoiding fares. Several other people passed them without showing tickets, I guess they thought they caught me and that was enough.

[andydd]

If what you said is correct then it seems very unfair you should be prosecuted as you did everything you are supposed to,

in these situations you would expect the TOC to be reasonable and ask you to pay the fare or at most give you a penalty fare (if they run the scheme)

which you could appeal later,

 

 

exact same thing happened to me,

ticket office closed,

machine didn't work..

I didn't pay penalty fare,

 

 

I offered to pay the single fare (as is your right) and appealed which was accepted.

 

 

There was even story in local paper about the station and the scenario, which Ill find and post up.

[Old-CodJA]

I agree with Andydd, you should send a clear, truthful account of what happened, don't introduce irrelevances and stick to proveable details and await the response from Northern.

 

The inspector's report and the company's record of the temporary booking office closure will be taken into consideration and if everything is as you have stated this seems likely to be sorted administratively pretty quickly in my opinion.

[BewareofFire]

Thanks for the support all. I sent my reply off and now it's just a case of waiting, I was honest and did not embellish. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

[BewareofFire]

Well they replied today and they said that I can either pay a fine of £82 (standard fine of £80 + £2 fare) or they will take me to court! Absolute swines.

[honeybee13]

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

Your choice. I bet they will say you tried to leave the arrival station without a ticket and only asked for a ticket when you were stopped.

 

If you went to court, if you cannot evidence the issues you had on the day and they take their word for it, you end up with a fair evasion conviction. Probably too much of a risk and they know it.

[Old-CodJA]

Well they replied today and they said that I can either pay a fine of £82 (standard fine of £80 + £2 fare) or they will take me to court! Absolute swines.

 

 

It seems that the inspector's account of this incident differs markedly from yours

 

If not I can see no reason why they should be confident enough to be ready to issue a Summons.

 

You are under no obligation to pay the administrative settlement that they have offered you and can let them issue a Summons and challenge their evidence at Court. Only you will know whether you consider the risk of conviction if you fail to be worth it.