used dad's 'free' oyster card - well im now in trouble - ** RESOLVED BEFORE COURT **

[Msduvet1703]

if you read this and provide advice, thank you it's much appreciated.

 

 

Secondly, yes I'm stupid and finally I know ignorance is not a defence

(I have a Masters in Law, though you probably won't believe it after reading this).

I'm expecting to receive a letter at some point from TfL and wanted to understand how to proceed...

 

I mentioned to my dad last week that I was going to London on Saturday 15th for a day trip

and he offered to lend me his Oyster card that gets him on the tube for 'free'. Thanks dad.

Readers, I'm sure you can see where this ends up.

 

 

I travelled from Birmingham to London and got off at Euston train station with a view to heading to Old Spitalfields market.

Euston-Kings Cross-Liverpool Street.

 

 

Went to leave the station at Liverpool Street, the barrier beeped and said seek assistance.

Having just been at Kings Cross I noticed they had ticket booths and machines all over the place

I figured it must be the same at Liverpool St, I'd just go to a booth

and buy a full day ticket to get out and not bother with the so called Oyster card faff.

That to me was seeking assistance.

 

 

I turned round to walk towards the way I'd come from and check out the signs

only to be chased by 2 guys asking to check my Oyster card.

 

I said sure it's my dad's.

The main guy took it from me,

pulled a note pad out of his bag and asked where I was going.

 

 

Then asked if my dad knew I had his card, to which I answered as above.

 

 

He asked did I know why he'd stopped me,

where I was from,

how long I'd been using the card

and how it came to be that my dad had given it to me.

 

 

I explained just for that journey and reiterated he'd given it to me.

He scanned the card then asked why I'd walked away from the barrier

I told him it said seek assistance I wanted to find a ticket booth.

 

 

Then he asked for my ID and started writing his Qs and my As

and said I looked to young to be married which I found a bit odd,

but said I was 29 - even though he had my D/L.

Asked if I lived with my dad (no) and where he lived (Coventry).

 

Then he cautioned me and said the card allows my dad free travel on the tube.

It was at this point the penny dropped that I was in big trouble.

 

 

Throughout the whole thing I didn't see any ID and they didn't tell me who they were

so it was all a bit odd.

 

 

He asked if I was entitled to any freebies and I said not that I'm aware.

Did I agree that I had evaded a fare by using dad's card.

Yes I did agree. How could I not.

 

 

He confiscated the card and said if dad wanted another he'd have to apply for one saying he'd lost his.

He asked me if I wanted him to read the notes back and I said no I've been watching him write it.

 

 

Then he asked me to sign so that he wouldn't be able to write anything underneath after I'd gone

and I can expect a letter. So here I am.

 

I'm absolutely not blaming my dad,

I take full responsibility for using the card without thinking about it.

I'm not sure what his card was,

I assumed it was a benefit he got being ex-military

as he's previously offered for me to use his friends and family discount on a certain website he uses.

Having said that he's 67 so it could be a senior ctizen card.

 

 

Either way I realise that by using it it's meant that TfL haven't received my fare

and someone else was paying for me to use dad's card which isn't right.

I wouldn't walk into a shop and stand there using a product without paying

, but that's essentially what I've done here and I'm mortified.

 

My main question is,

I know I'm guilty so do I instruct a solicitor from the point I receive the letter

and get their assistance or respond and see what the outcome is?

 

 

I am more than willing to pay TfLs costs for any losses/admin,

pay a fine, settle out of court as it is not something I am proud of

and do not want to have this hanging over me for the rest of my life.

 

 

To receive a conviction would mean losing my job

(I'm a contractor so always undergo record checks as I work on client sites in the finance sector)

and will certainly not be able to apply for future contracts.

 

 

I've calmed down a lot since Saturday but all I can think of is being sat at home on benefits

watching Jeremy Kyle whilst my husband slaves away and it's not the life I want for either of us.

 

On top of that my mum is in hospital today for a skin cancer operation,

I found out on Weds that she had it and had been keeping it from me,

got caught on Saturday by the revenue chaps

and now it's the op so it's been a week of sleepless nights.

 

Any help would be lovely.

 

 

Thank you again MsD

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Well, contrition is a good place to start, we won't have to spend a few posts trying to persuade you it isn't TfL's fault.

 

Sadly, there isn't a lot you can do until their letter arrives, which can be 6 weeks or so. Once it does arrive, tell us which offence they mention and we'll help you with a reply. There are quite a few threads about using other people's Oyster cards, I suggest you have a read around. The last couple managed to settle before court, from memory.

 

I hope your mum gets on OK. There's a lot they can do for skin cancer these days. Spend your time worrying about her and not TfL for now.

 

HB

[obiter dictum]

Being a first offence my first thought will be a Fixed Penalty for not having a valid ticket rather than prosecution. You were honest and upfront with the revenue protection employee and that is always a good sign. You went to the ticket booth to buy a ticket when the barrier rejected you as well.

 

You might have used the transport system without a valid ticket but you had no intent to deceive. Up to the point the barrier slung you out, you held an honest belief what you were doing was permitted.

 

Wait for the letter to arrive from TFL

 

Like most Revenue Inspectors, their job is to stop prolific offenders and those who deliberately try and evade paying the correct ticket.

[Msduvet1703]

Thanks both I guess I'll sit tight.

 

 

I've done A LOT of reading of various forums to the point I've ran out of threads to read.

 

 

I kind of feel that a lot of people have made mistakes in using someone else's freedom pass

(is that what my dad's card is?) and TfL have recognised this.

 

 

Then I've seen those who deliberately used the passes have been taken to court.

 

 

I know I've only used it once when I swiped through at Euston

but it was in place of buying a ticket and therefore deliberate.

 

 

Me wanting to buy a ticket when I couldn't get out at Liverpool St is probably a little too late in their eyes.

 

I suppose I have up to 6 weeks to drive myself mad waiting!

[dx100uk]

if its your only 'innocent' use

 

 

to be monest you should be ok

and they will prob settle out of court.

 

 

waiting game sady.

 

 

but whatever you do, DONT waffle in your reply.

 

 

keep it simple, short, truthful & to the point.

 

 

dx

[honeybee13]

...and feel free to post the anonymised reply up here if you want us to have a look before you send it.

 

HB

[Msduvet1703]

Yes it's absolutely my only use. I don't often visit London and have always bought an all day ticket previously. I think as I was visiting my folks dad thought he was doing me a favour by giving me the card. He's just text me to say he feels bad and will cover any costs which I wasn't expecting.

 

I'll come back when I hear any more. Hopefully in the meantime I'll start sleeping better now I've got this off my chest.

 

Dx I won't waffle I can assure you. My writing style is quite different when it comes to letter writing

[unclebulgaria67]

We all make mistakes. I can remember buying the wrong ticket from a machine when visiting a brother in London. I was telling him how cheap it was to get around and he queried it. Realised that i had a childs ticket and all the barriers would have shown a child's ticket being used.

 

I have also borrowed Oyster cards, but the paid for variety, before getting my own, for when i visit London.

[TylerH]

Then he asked for my ID and started writing his Qs and my As and said I looked to young to be married which I found a bit odd, but said I was 29 - even though he had my D/L. Asked if I lived with my dad (no) and where he lived (Coventry).

 

 

I would have thought TfL would be very interested in why your father had a (free) Oyster card when he lives in Coventry? Did he recently move there but maintain an address in London to claim this benefit?

[obiter dictum]

I have a blue badge that entitles me to park anywhere in the United Kingdom, and i live in Northern Ireland

 

I know police as well get free travel with TFL, not just the MET.

 

Ex-London Transport employees also get this service free

 

For all we know this free travel might be some sort of occupational retirement benefit. What difference does it make where he currently lives??

 

People are always to quick to jump to conclusion and that they must be guilty before the facts are known

[Msduvet1703]

No he has always lived in Coventry. He is ex-RAF and receives a pension from them. I believe this entitles him to a pass. He also has membership at the victory services club in London and is able to offer family members discounted membership there.

[obiter dictum]

Yes Msduvet1703

 

I am aware of that entitlement being ex-army myself

 

Tylerh

 

In this country we have the presumption of innocence, not a kangaroo court mentality

[Msduvet1703]

Thanks capquest. Some people are helpful, then some just see the worst in everyone.

 

I answered all of the questions honestly, the revenue inspector was more interested in me than my dad. I think he was trying to ascertain whether I had taken the card without permission which is fair enough.

 

No one can claim they are 100% perfect

[TylerH]

The presumption of innocence is absolutely correct, however in the interests of providing the best advice on this forum, occasionally additional questions may be asked to delve into the detail and also to understand any further lines of investigation TfL MAY have followed up. There have been other threads on this forum about the initial validity of freedom and student passes and I merely wanted to seek assurance on this in case it later proved to be an issue.

 

I was certainly not making assumptions - hence the ? question marks in my sentences.

 

There are indeed some that see the worst in everyone, this is now apparent.

[Msduvet1703]

The presumption of innocence is absolutely correct, however in the interests of providing the best advice on this forum, occasionally additional questions may be asked to delve into the detail and also to understand any further lines of investigation TfL MAY have followed up. There have been other threads on this forum about the initial validity of freedom and student passes and I merely wanted to seek assurance on this in case it later proved to be an issue.

 

I was certainly not making assumptions - hence the ? question marks in my sentences.

 

There are indeed some that see the worst in everyone, this is now apparent.

 

The questions you asked were a little prickly if I'm honest and it's only now that you've explained yourself that their context is understood. Don't forget we're all sat here behind a keyboard rather than talking face to face and it's very easy for things to be misconstrued.

[king12345]

I bet a nickel that you'll get a byelaw 17(1) prosecution letter which seems to be the TfL standard nowadays.

After that it will be begging time to settle out of court unfortunately.

[Msduvet1703]

*UPDATE*

 

Returned home to a letter;

 

"On Saturday 15th August you were reported to TfL for failing to produce a valid ticket, pass or photo card for your journey on the LU. The facts of this incident are being considered and I must advise you that legal proceedings may be taken against you in accordance with TfLs prosecution policy.

 

If you have any comments to make about this incident please write them on the back... Return within 10 days."

 

It says I don't have to reply, may harm my defence if I don't and failure to respond may result in the matter being progressed.

 

So... I have already been working on a reply to this since I knew it was coming. However, from reading the letter does anyone have any useful advice/insights or should I post the letter here first?

 

Thanks all

[obiter dictum]

Believe it or not, the best advice i can give is totally be honest and

grovel

 

They will respect you for that

 

These revenue inspectors are not really bothered with people such as you. They are after the prolific offenders who evade day in day out.

 

My own opinion will be a slap on the wrist or a penalty fare as punishment

[firstclassx]

Believe it or not, the best advice i can give is totally be honest and

grovel

 

They will respect you for that

 

These revenue inspectors are not really bothered with people such as you. They are after the prolific offenders who evade day in day out.

 

My own opinion will be a slap on the wrist or a penalty fare as punishment

 

I disagree .

 

Abuse of "free" concessionary travel cards, funded by the taxpayer, as in this instance is where prosecution is normally inevitable.

 

It is only exceptionally that these sorts of cases are resolved without court, and only in exceptional and compelling circumstances.

 

You are exactly the sort of evader TfL is looking for, pre-meditated fare evasion abusing taxpayer funded concessions. Your dad is also at significant risk of prosecution himself, as it is an offence to transfer tickets in such circumstances. Your MG11 statement will have recorded your comments about your father offering permission. The likelehood is that his facilities will just be barred permanently, but court is also an option for him. (Aiding & Abetting) and there is case law on this.

[obiter dictum]

Aiding and abetting is American

 

we have conspiracy or incitement under the Criminal law Act in the UK

 

With any criminal prosecution ,intent, or Mens rea has to be proven by all parties to secure a prosecution

[Msduvet1703]

The revenue guy said to tell the card issuer that he had lost it in order to get a replacement.

 

I'll post my letter tomorrow and start phoning round some solicitors for their advice.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Honestly, I don't think you need a solicitor unless you're going to find one who deals with criminal matters and is near the court where your case would be heard.

 

How long do you have to reply please? It might be worth waiting for other forum regulars to comment so that you can tailor your letter.

 

HB

[Msduvet1703]

Hi HB

 

 

I have been given 10 days to respond. So far this is what I've come up with...

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

In response to your letter dated 17th August, please find below my brief version of events as I recall them.

My dad offered me his oyster card after I mentioned I was planning a daytrip to London from Birmingham to visit Old Spitalfields market. I took it at as the kind gesture he intended.

On Saturday I entered the Underground at Euston Station, changed at Kings Cross and got off the tube at Liverpool St. Upon trying to exit at the barriers it said ‘seek assistance’. I decided to seek assistance in the form of buying a ticket as the card clearly wasn’t working and I wanted to continue my journey. I turned round in search of a ticket booth/machine as I was not familiar with the station.

After walking a few feet away from the barriers I was approached by 2 men, one of whom asked if he could see my oyster card. After answering questions with regard to my journey and how long I had been using the card for (just that journey) I was cautioned and subjected to further questioning. The inspector said that I was using a pass that allowed my dad free travel on the tube and I agreed. I agreed that by using the pass I had not bought a ticket for myself and by that point I knew that I had made a huge mistake.

I realise that I have made a grave error in judgement by choosing to use the pass and I am extremely remorseful. By not paying for my journey, TfL have not received my fare plus someone else is paying for the Oyster card, which I know is wrong. I cannot apologise enough.

I seldom visit London, but when I do I purchase a ticket for the underground – bar this one occasion. This has been my first offence and I wish to offer my unreserved apologies. I would never think to walk into a shop and start using a product or service without paying, but this is effectively what I have done here and I deeply regret my actions. I understand that there must be consequences to my actions in order for TfL to recover their losses and to make it clear that fare evasion is a serious matter.

To know that I have stupidly contributed to the millions of pounds worth of fare evasion losses experienced by TfL is not something I am proud of at all. I take full responsibility for my actions and have no one to blame but myself for making such a poor decision. I assure you that I am usually a law abiding citizen and I have absolutely no intention of repeating this mistake. Again, I would like to offer my sincere apologies.

To be prosecuted and receive a criminal record would severely damage my career prospects and reputation. It’s highly likely that I will no longer be able to secure further contracts once my current one expires in December due to the stringent checks that I have to pass to work on projects dealing with confidential customer records. The thought of ruining my future has caused dreadful anxiety and sleepless nights over the past few days.

If possible, I would be grateful for the opportunity to rectify my transgression by paying any costs incurred as a result of my stupidity including administrative fees and of course the fee of my ticket, as well as any penalty fine that you deem appropriate.

Yours Sincerely

[king12345]

I disagree .

 

Abuse of "free" concessionary travel cards, funded by the taxpayer, as in this instance is where prosecution is normally inevitable.

 

It is only exceptionally that these sorts of cases are resolved without court, and only in exceptional and compelling circumstances.

 

You are exactly the sort of evader TfL is looking for, pre-meditated fare evasion abusing taxpayer funded concessions. Your dad is also at significant risk of prosecution himself, as it is an offence to transfer tickets in such circumstances. Your MG11 statement will have recorded your comments about your father offering permission. The likelehood is that his facilities will just be barred permanently, but court is also an option for him. (Aiding & Abetting) and there is case law on this.

 

+1

Revenue inspectors are not high profile investigators, they catch what they see.

And in any case once they submit a case they don't have any control over how far it will go.

[king12345]

Aiding and abetting is American

 

we have conspiracy or incitement under the Criminal law Act in the UK

 

With any criminal prosecution ,intent, or Mens rea has to be proven by all parties to secure a prosecution

 

Try Magistrates court act 1980 (44)(1)