Neighbours roof

[brussels]

Hi

my neighbour had his roof recovered whilst I was on holiday.

 

However, since this work, there is water damage to a ceiling.

We sprayed water on the roof from eaves upwards along the party wall until we noticed water coming in.

from ground level there roof did not look quite right so I asked a roofer to inspect.

 

They have gaps in their tiles and nail holes are visible which should be covered by a tile overlap.

their tiling battens have not been set out properly resulting in a problem at the crucial party wall line and water is tracking across into my house.

 

I have approached my neighbour who does not care as his roof is not leaking and he says the roofer has 20 years experience.

I have contacted his roofer but I think i am being strung along.

 

I was thinking that after sending letters to him,

I would need to get an RICS surveyors report and then take them to court

,but could I get an order for them to have their roof fixed?

I will try to upload photos to show the workmanship.

 

Thanks in advance.

[AndyOrch]

Gather as much photographic evidence as possible brussels and keep a timetable of events...

 

Andy

[Conniff]

A properly endorsed surveyors report would be all a court needed to award in your favour.

[raydetinu]

As it affected the party wall, your neighbour should of issued a party wall notice so you could agree or get a surveyor to vet proposals? ( at neighbours cost ).

Anyway nothing you can do now about that!

As said, you will need a Surveyors report to look at was has been done and the defects.

You can get the work done to mitigate any further damage and then sue neighbour for the cost.

The cost of the report can also be claimed

[brussels]

Hi

 

My neighbour had his roof recovered and rainwater began to leak into my property after the first rainfall.

 

I told my neighbour who passed on the roofers contact details, but he never came out.

 

I got a friend roofer to look at the workmanship and the roof has been incorrectly installed.

There are gaps between the tiles and nail holes showing.

 

My roofer inserted bitumen sheet to temporarily prevent rainwater ingress.

 

Further, there was no request to disturb my roof covering and a bonding gutter should have been used to effectively separate the two roofs.

 

From the photographs it can be seen that the roof has used a different sized tile, but why there are gaps between tiles (covered with the bitumen sheets) is pure incompetence.

 

I told my neighbour about the problem who replied that his roof does not leak.

 

I written to my neighbour to explain that he should get an approved (NFRC) roofer to inspect or a chartered surveyor and I sent images of the defective workmanship.

 

My neighbour's roofer sent to me a letter from their insurers telling me that it is my responsibility to chase the roofer about the rainwater ingress.

 

After some words, the roofer came back and said that the roof is fine.

So my neighbour refuses to do anything.

 

We have a defective ceiling, damp walls and rainwater dripping through at times

 

I offered to pay to have a binding gutter fitted, but my neighbour says no-one is touching his roof.

 

At times, thee has been rainwater dripping through the light bulb.

 

I recently sent to my neighbour a list of roofers and chartered surveyors and asked that he select one from the list and I will appoint one if them, but he does not respond.

 

I have just had a chartered building surveyor inspect the roof and he agrees that a the workmanship is very poor and a bonding gutter is required to separate the two roofs.

 

I have some defective felt which needs repair to help mitigate my loss.

I need to lift battens and disturb his roof covering to effect the repair, but he will has threatened legal action if I do and his son in law says that we will have him to deal with if we do

- should I report this to the police?

 

My next action is court, but I have a few queries:

 

Pre action protocol

-I will send the report to my neighbour , but I want conditions to be attached to prevent court action such as:

 

• he pays for the binding gutter,
  
• he pays for my RICS report,
  
• The remedial work must be completed by a NFRC roofer and
  
• the work must be inspected by a chartered surveyor.
  
• My neighbour pays for the excess on my insurance.
  

The work must be completed in 4 weeks.

 

I am in the right to include the above conditions? Do I need to see a solicitor?

 

is my neighbour fully responsible for the roofer's defective work and will need to subsequently sue the roofer.

 

Would the court impose an order on him to complete the remedial work?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Oops it should read my neighbours insurers sent me a letter saying it is my responsibility to chase the roofer-, this would mean my neighbour has no responsibility.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think you are correct in what you have said. Neighbour responsible, so you sue the neighbour and they can then sue their roofer.

 

Just make sure that the roofing survey is clear and cannot be argued.

 

Neighbour should have informed you in writing if the roof work was going to touch the dividing line in the roof. It was always going to be the case that the roofer had to lift some of your tiles and by the looks of it, they have replaced a few.

[king12345]

I've seen bodged roofs and this is one of them.

Even a non expert can see that.

Tiles not lined up, gap in ridge tiles, flushing all over the place etc.

As this is an emergency (water leaking into electrical), you should go ahead with the report, give neighbour 7 days max and then if nothing happens get the work done yourself.

If the nephew comes to sort you out call the police.

Where the party wall is you need a fiberglass bridge under the tiles.

They're very thin and prevent water ingress where the different tiles meet.

Couple of hours work for a good roofer, £200 labour, £200 material.

[BankFodder]

I'm very interested to hear about this insurers letter which apparently says that it is your responsibility to chase his roofer. Frankly I'm a bit incredulous about it. Would you mind posting it up here in PDF format – with the identifiers taken out.

 

If the letter really does say that then I think you have a good basis for complaint – if eventually you needed to.

 

From everything you say, you have a good basis for a legal action. I would be suing the neighbour in nuisance which basically means that he is interfering with your enjoyment of your land. I estimate your chances of success are better than 90%.

 

The problem with the legal action is that it is likely to take a few months before it comes to trial and you win and you get your judgement and then the money is paid over and the roofing work is paid for.

In view of the fact that we are coming well into winter and that your house is likely to suffer a lot of damage in the meantime, I think that you are justified in having a certain amount of work done simply to protect your property and to mitigate your loss. In fact it is a duty to mitigate your loss. However, this means that you would have to undertake work and incur expenses which your neighbour has not necessarily agreed to. You need to be very careful here because if eventually your neighbour loses, then he may well fall back to challenging the amount of money that you have spent so far.

 

In order to protect yourself I think that you need to get at least two quotes – and three would be better – to identify and diagnose exactly the problem and come up with a scheme to protect your property. Because you wouldn't have access to your neighbour's roof to do the job properly, this would have to be very clearly understood to be a short-term remedy.

 

I think that you need to set about obtaining two or three quotations immediately. Also, write to your neighbour – make sure that everything is in writing now – sent recorded delivery, as well as a copy which you have posted through his letterbox informing him of what you are doing, telling him that you will be taking legal action, but most importantly inviting him to instruct his own roofers to come in and to inspect the problem and to prepare their own reports or quotations as he wishes. It will be very important in court that you can show the judge that he was given every opportunity to get his own diagnosis and his own prices and that he had an opportunity to challenge your quotations.

 

I suggest that in the circumstances, that the diagnosis is carried out by a proper chartered surveyor and that the roofers quotation is done in cooperation with him. It must all be very squeakyclean. There is no doubt that you will incur costs for these surveys and the quotations. Once again, you should inform your neighbour in writing that you are setting about doing this and that there will be costs and that if you win at the forthcoming trial, that this will be part of your claim.

 

This is situation where you need to cross all the T's and dot all the I's so that later on there is no room for a challenge to any of this. Your letter might also point out to your neighbour that by forcing you only to pay for short-term remedial work now, when you finally win and the work has to be done properly, this would result in a duplication of work and duplication of expense which could be avoided now if he would simply cooperate with you to resolve the problem rather than to fight you.

 

Tell your neighbour also, that if eventually he makes an insurance claim, his own insurers will only pay for the work that was necessary at the time – and not additional work which became necessary simply because he was uncooperative. Assure your neighbour that you have both his best interests and your own in mind. Do this all in writing so that you can show to a judge that you really have tried hard to get it sorted out and to reduce all expenses.

 

You should begin your action using the MoneyClaim website. On the part of the website where you fill out your claim, you will find a checkbox which basically says that you will be sending an extended and more detailed particulars of claim once the action has been started. Make sure that you tick this box. This is very important.

 

One of the problems here is that you won't really be completely sure as to the full cost of the work until it comes to the time to begin it. This is because you won't really know the full extent of the damage which has to be repaired. It is in your interest to keep this claim within the small claims limit, meaning less than £10,000. You will soon understand from the quotes as to the kind of ballpark you need to be talking about. If all of the quotes say that the repairs will be around, say, £5000 or £6000 then you would probably be best off pursuing for an open-ended figure – saying "the cost of repairs, estimated at the present time at £6236.50 p – but in any event, not exceeding £8500.

 

Although this may sound a little convoluted, I think that this is something that the court procedure can probably handle.

 

One question that bothers me is whether you need access at all to your neighbour's roof? If you do, then he is within your rights to prevent this. You could find yourself in a position of having to ask for an interim injunction.

 

The way your post is presented, it sounds to me as if you are on the verge of issuing the proceedings. However, there is something about your post which makes me feel that you are not really ready because you don't altogether understand the way forward.

 

I think you should hold off for a little moment and get into a discussion on this thread so we can find the best way forward for you. You have some time because you need the quotes. You have talked about one but I'm quite sure that this is not enough

[unclebulgaria67]

Just to add a note regarding your own Home Insurance.

 

The roof damage won't be covered due to faulty workmanship of neighbours roofer, but you might have cover for internal water damage if you have accidental damage cover. The problem is however that your Insurers would see it as pointless paying for any work, if the roof is still leaking. If you register a potential claim, then advise the Insurers what steps you are taking to resolve the situation.

 

In addition, did you take out any legal cover with your Home Insurance and if so have you made enquiries about what help they can provide ? You normally have to use the Insurers own legal people and they don't always want to pay a Solicitors you might want to instruct. Not saying using your Insurers legal cover is the best option, but if you wanted to use it, then you must advise them before you go too far yourself, as they won't step in later. The condition of this type of cover is you have to notify of any potential claim issue within a certain time period.

[brussels]

Hi

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

I have carried out some temporary felt repairs to my roof which has abated the water ingress (for now).

 

Whilst carrying out the work, my neighbour decided to video us and his son in law told us that if we touch their roof it is trespass and there will be trouble!

 

I now have a chartered surveyors report which I have attached an extract with all reference to anyone omitted. I have also attached the three letters I have sent to my neighbour.

 

The surveyor has estimated the cost of remedial works to be £2000. I have tried to get roofers to provide a price for the remedial works, but although they come out, as soon as they realise their is a dispute, I hear no more from them.

 

I'm wondering whether I should submit a claim based on my surveyor's estimate together with an 'up-to £x' amount for potential unknown works. Or would I really need to obtain builder's quotes.

 

Do I need to carry out a pre-action protocol? Or do I just start a claim?

 

If I do follow the pre-action protocol, do I make conditions in my letter such as:

 

The work being carried out within 2 months

My neighbour pays for the roof report

The work must be completed by an NFRC roofer

A surveyor must inspect the work.

 

A timescale to provide a response to my letter agreeing the conditions within say 3 weeks.

 

Or do I need to see a solicitor?

 

Thanks for reading.

report.pdf

Letter 3 23 oct 16.pdf

Lterr 2 10th August 16.pdf

Letter 1 14th oct.pdf

Letter 1 14th oct.pdf

Lterr 2 10th August 16.pdf

report.pdf

Letter 3 23 oct 16.pdf

[BazzaS]

If he is saying he'll sue for trespass if you or your agents touch his roof,

one option would be to sue for the cost of the damage so far ...

and seek an injunction forcing HIM to (pay for, and) arrange for the repairs to both of your roofs.

 

Another option would be to let him sue for trespass,

and hope that the court will award him £1 nominal damages,

but that he has to pay both his and your legal costs as a result of his unreasonable behaviour ;

 

even if the court felt they had to find in his favour

re: trespass if you touched his roof against his wishes,

I can't see that they would award more than nomional damages in the circumstances,

and they may let him "win the battle, but lose the war"!.

[BankFodder]

Welcome back. It's always a bit discouraging to give advice and then to find people disappear for long periods of time without letting anyone know what is going on. The advice given on this forum by everybody depends on goodwill and engagement.

 

I'll have a look at the documents that you supplied and give you a reply later on. However, you may be interested to know that one of the defences to an action for trespass is that you carried out your entry to abate a nuisance.

 

It seems to me that the effect of the state of your neighbours property amounts to a nuisance and so therefore if it means that you have to go onto his property in some way to deal with that then you have an excellent defence. I say this simply so that you understand that you shouldn't be worried about your neighbour or his son-in-law threatening trouble. It's a load of nonsense.

[king12345]

Just seen the pictures...

OMG!!!

No roofer would do such thing.

Surely your neighbour has employed his mate from the pub to bodge his roof (and yours).

Go ahead and fix your side.

If he says that you trespassed tell them to sue you and as BankFodder pointed out you'll have a defence, but I suppose that at the same time you could counterclaim for your losses (not sure if you have to start your own claim, others will confirm)

[brussels]

Welcome back. It's always a bit discouraging to give advice and then to find people disappear for long periods of time without letting anyone know what is going on. The advice given on this forum by everybody depends on goodwill and engagement.

 

I'll have a look at the documents that you supplied and give you a reply later on. However, you may be interested to know that one of the defences to an action for trespass is that you carried out your entry to abate a nuisance.

 

It seems to me that the effect of the state of your neighbours property amounts to a nuisance and so therefore if it means that you have to go onto his property in some way to deal with that then you have an excellent defence. I say this simply so that you understand that you shouldn't be worried about your neighbour or his son-in-law threatening trouble. It's a load of nonsense.

 

Thanks for taking an interest. I do find dealing with the whole roof issue quite distressing and my surveyor took three weeks to deliver my report and then I had to go back to him to clarify a few issues. Further, I'd o have a bad habit of procrastinating and burying my head in the sand...just one of my personality traits.

 

I look forward to your comments.

 

Just seen the pictures...

OMG!!!

No roofer would do such thing.

Surely your neighbour has employed his mate from the pub to bodge his roof (and yours).

Go ahead and fix your side.

If he says that you trespassed tell them to sue you and as BankFodder pointed out you'll have a defence, but I suppose that at the same time you could counterclaim for your losses (not sure if you have to start your own claim, others will confirm)

 

Thanks for your commetnt. The confusing thing to me is why having been shown the photos, my neighbour would not want to take issue with the roofer. There was damage to a mattress, which I threw out at the time. I think that my neighbour is playing a game that if he admits to there being any kind of problem with the roof then he will be liable for internal damage to finishes and furnishings in my property. so he is playing a deliberate game of ignorance that there is anything wrong with his roof. Nevertheless, it still doesn't add up as if you paid for a roof to be incorrectly installed, I think most people would want it put right. His standard response is "my roof doesn't leak" which detracts from admitting there is any kind of problem.

 

Thanks

 

If he is saying he'll sue for trespass if you or your agents touch his roof, one option would be to sue for the cost of the damage so far ... and seek an injunction forcing HIM to (pay for, and) arrange for the repairs to both of your roofs.

Another option would be to let him sue for trespass, and hope that the court will award him £1 nominal damages, but that he has to pay both his and your legal costs as a result of his unreasonable behaviour ; even if the court felt they had to find in his favour re: trespass if you touched his roof against his wishes, I can't see that they would award more than nomional damages in the circumstances, and they may let him "win the battle, but lose the war"!.

 

Thanks for your comments and support.

[king12345]

Thanks for your commetnt. The confusing thing to me is why having been shown the photos, my neighbour would not want to take issue with the roofer. There was damage to a mattress, which I threw out at the time. I think that my neighbour is playing a game that if he admits to there being any kind of problem with the roof then he will be liable for internal damage to finishes and furnishings in my property. so he is playing a deliberate game of ignorance that there is anything wrong with his roof. Nevertheless, it still doesn't add up as if you paid for a roof to be incorrectly installed, I think most people would want it put right. His standard response is "my roof doesn't leak" which detracts from admitting there is any kind of problem.

 

Thanks

 

Probably I wasn't far off when I said that his mate from the pub bodged his roof.

He's probably got a very cheap price and he doesn't want to go back to his mate and tell him that the all job needs redoing.

At the same time he doesn't want to risk having to pay a real roofer because it would cost him.

He messed with your roof, he's got to pay for repair.

Have it done and sue him.

Make sure you have extensive photobook to prove damage inside and outside.

Also a nice video while it rains will support beyond any doubt your evidence.

[brussels]

Hi

 

I now received another letter from my neighbour's insurer advising that I must take up any claim with the roofing contractor and not my neighbour. secondly, that I should refrain from communicating with my neighbour and send any documents to the insurer who will then defend any claim and also forward the dicuments on to the roofing contractor.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on the insurers letter to me?

 

I think I may need to get legal advice before proceeding further.

 

Thanks for reading.

[BankFodder]

What about your own insurer? Presumably you have one. Have you contacted them and inform them?

 

I completely disagree that this is a matter between you and the roofing contractor. It is a matter between you and your neighbour and I have to say that I would start thinking of bringing a claim because I don't see any other way forward for you. It's also outrageous for your neighbours insurer to instruct you as to who you should be addressing your correspondence to. I should continue to address your correspondence to neighbour – but now that you have some information about his insurer, and I suppose, a reference number, I would start copying the insurer into everything as well.

 

In fact I would give copies of everything to the insurer and say that you are holding them and their client responsible for all the damage that is caused by your neighbours refusal to allow you on to his property.

 

You should also tell them that is absurd for them to try and pass the buck onto the roofing contractor when a lot of the problem is simply being caused by their own client who is refusing to allow you onto the property. Point out to them that the roofing contractor has no authority to admit you to the property. You might also want to warn the insurer that they have a duty to treat you fairly under the FCA ICOBS regulations and that if you end up having to see your neighbour, you will sue them jointly

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi

 

I now received another letter from my neighbour's insurer advising that I must take up any claim with the roofing contractor and not my neighbour. secondly, that I should refrain from communicating with my neighbour and send any documents to the insurer who will then defend any claim and also forward the dicuments on to the roofing contractor.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on the insurers letter to me?

 

I think I may need to get legal advice before proceeding further.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

I doubt the letter has come from neighbours Home Insurance, as they should really know that it is a dispute between neighbours.

 

I wonder whether the letter has come from roofing contractors Insurance ?

 

Agree with Bankfodder, that if you need to take this forward legally, it is a court claim against the neighbour.

 

Have already posted a reply about your Home Insurance, if you look back.

[BankFodder]

Please will you post up the letter in PDF format – redact the identifiers – and we can get a better understanding of what is happening

[brussels]

hi

 

I have inserted the text of the insurers letter to me below.

 

My insurers have not been able to help.

 

write again as the insurer of XXXX regarding further correspondence that you have supplied to our insured regarding allegations of damage to your property regarding faulty repairs carried out to their roof by a contractor by the name of XXXXXXX

 

Having investigated the matter with our insured XXXXXXXX, and should you still have concerns regarding issues concerning the roof, as advised to you previously, you need to refer your claim to the roofing contractor.

 

Should any proceedings be brought against our insured in relation to this matter, these proceedings will be defended on our insured’s behalf, and our response again will be that your claim along with independent evidence that you have obtained to support your allegations will need to be sent onto the roofer XXXXXXX.

 

Please may I ask that you refrain from contacting our Insured XXXXXXXXXXXX again in relation to this matter, as this matter has been placed in our hands to deal with.

 

Should you wish to discuss this matter further with me, please contact me on the number below

[BankFodder]

It would be much more helpful if you would post up the originals in PDF format please.

 

Also, on what basis has your own insurer refused to help? Who are they? And also who are your neighbours insurers? Please will you post up letters in PDF form. It makes it much easier for everyone

[brussels]

Hi, I have attached a copy of the insurer's letter - albeit, Its from a photograph. I will upload a scanned version tomorrow.

 

My own insurer has said that I need to take legal advice. I don't have legal protection cover.

 

Thanks

Insurance letter .pdf

report.pdf

[unclebulgaria67]

That letter from Insurers seems to be the roofers Insurers and not your neighbour Home Insurance ?

[BankFodder]

First of all, you don't need to worry about legal advice at the moment. Everything is fairly straightforward – unless you really feel out of your depth and frightened. However, if you get professional legal advice it will simply cost you money and it is unlikely to speed anything up. We can probably give you all the advice you need as long as you're prepared to go ahead and do it yourself and we will hold your hand as much as possible.

 

I haven't had a look at the letter above yet, but if UB is right and it is the roofers insurance, then the one that you want to see is your neighbours home insurance. I suppose that he is unlikely to give it to you. Also, who's your insurer? I don't understand why they say that you need to take legal advice. Have you put a claim in with them? Have you given the many formal notice as to what is going on? Frankly because there is a possibility that they may end up having to pay out some money, it is they who should be taking steps to help you. Have you had any written communication with them or from them?

[BankFodder]

Yes please. Please upload PDFs rather than pictures. It makes life much easier for everyone