Advice needed after being ripped off £60,000 by cowboy builder

[king12345]

On the land registry you are able to see (for £3) who the leasholder is.

You have to search for his flat with door number etc.

If his name doesn't appear there it means that he's only a tenant.

[BazzaS]

On the land registry you are able to see (for £3) who the leasholder is.

You have to search for his flat with door number etc.

If his name doesn't appear there it means that he's only a tenant.

 

??"If his name doesn't appear there it means that he's only a tenant."

 

If he has a lease : he's a tenant.

Consider "Assured Shorthold Tenancy" : if you have one of those you are a tenant ....

What are you suggesting you become (over and above "a tenant") for a lease registered at the Land Registry (LR)??

 

Regarding the Land Registry: a legal lease with a term of seven years + should be registered at the LR. The registration isn't to protect the tenant, but to protect any potential purchaser of the freehold.

There is no obligation to register shorter leases.

[king12345]

??"If his name doesn't appear there it means that he's only a tenant."

 

If he has a lease : he's a tenant.

Consider "Assured Shorthold Tenancy" : if you have one of those you are a tenant ....

What are you suggesting you become (over and above "a tenant") for a lease registered at the Land Registry (LR)??

 

Regarding the Land Registry: a legal lease with a term of seven years + should be registered at the LR. The registration isn't to protect the tenant, but to protect any potential purchaser of the freehold.

There is no obligation to register shorter leases.

 

I meant that if his name is not on the land registry title, it means that he doesn't own the flat hence the op chances of recovering £60k become slimmer.

[BazzaS]

On the land registry you are able to see (for £3) who the leasholder is.

You have to search for his flat with door number etc.

If his name doesn't appear there it means that he's only a tenant.

 

I meant that if his name is not on the land registry title, it means that he doesn't own the flat hence the op chances of recovering £60k become slimmer.

 

So, your earlier post should have said "see who the freeholder is"? rather than "leaseholder"??

 

However, the OP has already said:

This is a flat in a block owned by housing association (the freeholders) and we think, looking at dates, that the builder may have bought the flat he lives in. Land registry just brings up the local authority when you search for the owner of the flat and the housing association are not willing to divulge information about their leaseholders

 

So, the LR would only be useful if there was a (legal, more than seven year) lease registered.

 

He should show if he has bought the freehold of part of the whole block, (but the OP should already have seen this), and may show if he has a legal lease of more than seven years.

 

OP : did you search for "the whole block's address", or "the address of the specific flat he is in"?

[king12345]

So, your earlier post should have said "see who the freeholder is"? rather than "leaseholder"??

 

However, the OP has already said:

 

 

So, the LR would only be useful if there was a (legal, more than seven year) lease registered.

 

He should show if he has bought the freehold of part of the whole block, (but the OP should already have seen this), and may show if he has a legal lease of more than seven years.

 

OP : did you search for "the whole block's address", or "the address of the specific flat he is in"?

 

I think you're overcomplicating things.

In a block of flats there will be the superior landlord who is the owner of the land.

The flat owners will be leaseholders, but recorded on the land registry as owning the flat.

If his name is not on the records for the specific flat he lives in, it means that he doesn't own the flat.

That's why I said that in this case he would be just a tenant, paying rent to the owner of the flat.

[BazzaS]

I think you're overcomplicating things.

In a block of flats there will be the superior landlord who is the owner of the land.

The flat owners will be leaseholders, but recorded on the land registry as owning the flat.

If his name is not on the records for the specific flat he lives in, it means that he doesn't own the flat.

That's why I said that in this case he would be just a tenant, paying rent to the owner of the flat.

 

If you "own the flat" : you own the freehold

Otherwise you just hold the leasehold, not the "reversionary interest"

 

You might "own" a short lease, or a long lease, but you still only "own the lease", not "own the flat".

If you breach a term of the lease you may face eviction : how could this be seen as "owning the flat"?

 

However, I agree : if the flat doesn't appear on the LR as him owning the freehold title : he doesn't own the legal title.

 

It would still be worth checking the LR for that specific flat, in case the entry suggests he might hold a beneficial interest in the legal title.

[king12345]

If you "own the flat" : you own the freehold

Otherwise you just hold the leasehold, not the "reversionary interest"

 

You might "own" a short lease, or a long lease, but you still only "own the lease", not "own the flat".

If you breach a term of the lease you may face eviction : how could this be seen as "owning the flat"?

 

However, I agree : if the flat doesn't appear on the LR as him owning the freehold title : he doesn't own the legal title.

 

It would still be worth checking the LR for that specific flat, in case the entry suggests he might hold a beneficial interest in the legal title.

 

That's correct, but on the land registry for that specific flat he lives in he would be noted as "owner".

I bought a record for a flat a couple of days ago to cross check references and that's how it appears

[BazzaS]

That's correct, but on the land registry for that specific flat he lives in he would be noted as "owner".

I bought a record for a flat a couple of days ago to cross check references and that's how it appears

 

Which of the 3 registers did the entry show in?

[king12345]

Which of the 3 registers did the entry show in?

 

Title register, directly from land registry website for £3

[BazzaS]

Title register, directly from land registry website for £3

 

There are 3 registers listed on "an official copy of register of title":

A: Property register

B: Proprietorship register and

C: Charges register.

 

Which of those 3 did that "owner" entry show in?

[Lujay]

There are 3 registers listed on "an official copy of register of title":

A: Property register

B: Proprietorship register and

C: Charges register.

 

Which of those 3 did that "owner" entry show in?

 

I seem to have started a debate! To answer your question, Bazza...the land registry search we did was for the specific flat he lives in. It said the county council owned the flat but when we called them they revealed the block is owned by circle housing. Google shows that the flat was up for rent in sept 2014 but then sold in early October that year. This is why we think the builder (defendant) may have bought the flat...I may try to call the estate agents who sold it and see if they're willing to tell us if it was indeed the builder who bought it but I'm not holding hope of anyone breaking confidentiality. Thanks again for your thoughts and your help. The housing association connection seems to complicate things and means searching for legal owner is much harder!

[king12345]

There are 3 registers listed on "an official copy of register of title":

A: Property register

B: Proprietorship register and

C: Charges register.

 

Which of those 3 did that "owner" entry show in?

 

The one you get from here:

 

https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/www/wps/portal/!ut/p/b1/hc5JDoJAEAXQs3iCqh5oeouiQAQVcIDeEKLGiIhDOoqcXnSnRq1dJe__KlCQEk6QGYJyhARUlV-2m1xvD1VePnYlMkYlJ4RTVzJhomcMHEamBkPOWpD-AA75l19AgjyLC3kMbjrxm95lWjQh1XZYj-xhE9jLOtD-ZDWPZl3Ljk_9swnxumpz6q16PLDQY93x0GEhRRQf4PW2pH_A4_cnwC9jIYzcw34NacvMbz1yzmGvSp_vIve66XTu6eK53Q!!/dl4/d5/L0lDU0lKSmdwcGlRb0tVUW9LVVEhL29Gb2dBRUlRaGpFQ1VJZ0FJQUl5RkFNaHdVaFM0SldsYTRvIS80RzNhRDJnanZ5aERVd3BNaFFqVW81Q2pHcHhBL1o3XzMyODQxMTQySDgzNjcwSTVGRzMxVDUzOFY0LzAvMzE5NDEyNzQzMzE3L3NwZl9BY3Rpb25OYW1lL3NwZl9BY3Rpb25MaXN0ZW5lci9zcGZfc3RydXRzQWN0aW9uLyEyZlFEU2VhcmNoLmRv/

[BazzaS]

The one you get from here:

 

https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/www/wps/portal/!ut/p/b1/hc5JDoJAEAXQs3iCqh5oeouiQAQVcIDeEKLGiIhDOoqcXnSnRq1dJe__KlCQEk6QGYJyhARUlV-2m1xvD1VePnYlMkYlJ4RTVzJhomcMHEamBkPOWpD-AA75l19AgjyLC3kMbjrxm95lWjQh1XZYj-xhE9jLOtD-ZDWPZl3Ljk_9swnxumpz6q16PLDQY93x0GEhRRQf4PW2pH_A4_cnwC9jIYzcw34NacvMbz1yzmGvSp_vIve66XTu6eK53Q!!/dl4/d5/L0lDU0lKSmdwcGlRb0tVUW9LVVEhL29Gb2dBRUlRaGpFQ1VJZ0FJQUl5RkFNaHdVaFM0SldsYTRvIS80RzNhRDJnanZ5aERVd3BNaFFqVW81Q2pHcHhBL1o3XzMyODQxMTQySDgzNjcwSTVGRzMxVDUzOFY0LzAvMzE5NDEyNzQzMzE3L3NwZl9BY3Rpb25OYW1lL3NwZl9BY3Rpb25MaXN0ZW5lci9zcGZfc3RydXRzQWN0aW9uLyEyZlFEU2VhcmNoLmRv/

 

Sorry, it wants my LR login when I try that URL.

 

That's correct, but on the land registry for that specific flat he lives in he would be noted as "owner".

I bought a record for a flat a couple of days ago to cross check references and that's how it appears

 

Can you check that copy of title, and see which of the 3 registers (A, B or C) it was in?

[Ganymede]

If you "own the flat" : you own the freehold

Otherwise you just hold the leasehold, not the "reversionary interest"

 

You might "own" a short lease, or a long lease, but you still only "own the lease", not "own the flat".

If you breach a term of the lease you may face eviction : how could this be seen as "owning the flat"?

 

However, I agree : if the flat doesn't appear on the LR as him owning the freehold title : he doesn't own the legal title.

 

It would still be worth checking the LR for that specific flat, in case the entry suggests he might hold a beneficial interest in the legal title.

 

Not always correct.

 

What King is saying is that if you buy a flat in a block you will not be the freeholder as they are the ones who own the building as a whole.

 

Each individual flat owner will own the leasehold.