PCN fine on a loading bay in camden

[joox]

Hello all

just been hit with a PCN parked on a loading bay in Camden.

i was clocked using the space for around 25 minutes.

 

I was actually unloading.

 

the sign on the bay states:

 

Loading only

Mon to Fri 8:30 to 6:30

 

sat 9:30 to 5:30

 

how to appeal this and does it make a difference where no time limits are on the sign?

 

Thanks alot

[Jamberson]

You have to be continuously unloading, which means you would be coming to and from the car.

 

Were you given an observation period on the PCN?

[joox]

yes 25 minutes

 

but i did make 2 trips.

[Jamberson]

They gave you 25 minutes observation time?

 

On the PCN it should have times From: xx and To: xx.

 

What do these say?

[joox]

i think so i will check and reply

 

thanks

[joox]

i have checked and observation time on my ticket is around 26 minutes.

also i did make 2 trips

[Jamberson]

Could you tell us the to and from times, as printed on the PCN?

 

It seems rather unlikely they would give 26 minutes. Five minutes is more usual.

[joox]

it is 26 minutes I have checked. i dont have the ticket in front of me but did check the from to time and it is around 26 minutes.

[Jamberson]

If that really is the case then it's going to go against you. The CEO who issued the PCN is claiming to have stood and watched your vehicle for almost half an hour without seeing it being unloaded.

 

You could try an appeal based on the fact that you were unloading, if you have something to support this, eg paperwork.

[green_and_mean]

26 mins is more likely to be a casual observation, ie he noted the vehicle parked and returned 20+ minutes later to find it still there.

[Jamberson]

If so, would those times go in the to/from spaces? I thought casual obs would go in the CEO notes, not on the PCN?

[green_and_mean]

If so, would those times go in the to/from spaces? I thought casual obs would go in the CEO notes, not on the PCN?

 

No, if he 'logged' it on his/her computer then it shows on the PCN as the 'from' time.

[joox]

my appeal will be based on the fact i made 2 trips for unloading goods.

 

there is no time constrictions on the sign. surly you are allowed to unload on 2 or 3 occasions ?

[green_and_mean]

You are over complicating matters you either had a load to deliver which took 25 mins to unload or you didn't, if you did appeal, if you didn't pay up.

[joox]

well this is what happened.

[Jamberson]

They will probably take the view that you were parked, unless you can give them a good reason for why it took 25 minutes to make two trips from the car and back. As I said, unloading has to be continuous. They will want to know what you were doing for the rest of that time - it's quite a long period to be away from the vehicle.

[joox]

thanks

i actually made 2 journeys back and forth with the car. on each occasion a unloading took place around 8 minutes each.

[Jamberson]

You need to be clear on the definitions they use. The unloading is the act of removing goods from the vehicle, which takes perhaps half a minute. The rest of the time isn't unloading, although there is leeway for doing necessary things with the goods. That's what I mean when I say you will have to tell them what you were doing while the vehicle was there, and you were not. Otherwise they will say that you left it parked there after you'd taken the goods out. I don't know what you were doing all that time, but if you want to tell us, I'll be happy to tell you whether I think it's a winner or not.

[Michael Browne]

I think what the OP is saying is that he was parked and unloading on two separate occasions. ie Parked, unloaded, drove away, re-loaded car, drove back, unloaded again.

[Jamberson]

Oh yes. I see. In that case, scrub my last answer.

 

If the CEO logged the vehicle initially, he may have made a note of the tyre valve positions, or photographed the wheels. When he subsequently issued the PCN he should have done the same again. This data will prove that the car moved and then returned.

[joox]

sorry but seems I was not clear. yes my appeal is based on the fact that i parked unloaded drove away, returned to unload again. the photographs on the site are only after the ticket was issued.

[Jamberson]

In that case, it would be worth asking the council now for copies of any photos and details of tyre valve positions they might have. Obviously, if their own records corroborate the fact that the vehicle moved and then returned, you have a strong case. If their evidence is inconclusive, then you still have a reaosnable one to appeal with.

 

Unless the sign says no return within a given timeframe, you have not done anything incorrect.

[sparkeyrjp]

Send the PCN back with proof of reason you were parked , delivery note , sales invoice , job sheet etc , challenge that the CEO had the vehicle under observation for the FULL 26 mins . I have been successful in Camden and Lambeth getting PCNs cancelled on loading bays , in reality they seem to watch for 5mins then pounce, not allowing for the fact you may not be able to load everything in one go

[Jamberson]

You don't need to send the PCN back. And at this stage there's no point in providing a delivery note, as we are talking about an alleged wait of 26 minutes. The way to deal with this is not to explain why the vehicle was there, but to convince them that it was not there continuously. That's why I would advise, prior to appealing, that some fact-finding is done as to what details the council have. Just a phone call or email should help.

[sparkeyrjp]

Correct me if I am wrong but by appealing , you stop the clock , by phoning etc is wasting time , and knowing how Camden operates , they will stand by their CEO and until you go down the path of putting it in writing will just bluster ,

Both of my appeals took almost a month to be dealt with , and in that time had the appeal failed I would not have to have paid the higher amount ,