Wrong street name on ticket?

[s8n]

Hi Guys.

Hope you can help.

 

On 22/02/2014 I parked in the entrance to a private car park whilst i went inside the building to get the key to open the gate.

By the time i came out i had received a parking ticket.

 

The ticket reads: 27 Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway.

Location: New Southgate.

 

At the time i had parked in the entrance of the car park, my car was parked at an angle so not to obstruct the road, and enough room was left around the Vehicle for pedestrians to cross safely away from the road it self. (Between the car and the gate).

 

Also my Hazard lights where on and i was away from my vehicle for approximately 5 mins or less.

 

When looking at google maps the road shows as Goit Side. Although the ticket location stated New Southgate.

 

What can i argue on this ticket?

 

 

 

 

Thanks. in advance

[havinastella]

Is this a Council/Police or a private company?

 

So Parking or Penalty charge notice?

[s8n]

Hi Havinastella.

Its a PCN from the local council.

Thanks

[havinastella]

I have moved this to the correct forum.

[Michael Browne]

Two grounds:

a) wrong location (this is fatal to a pcn)

b) Exemption O applies: A vehicle waiting while a gate or barrier is opened/closed to allow access or departure to/from premises

[Jamberson]

New Southgate is a different location? Do you know where it is?

 

If it's completely different road then you can appeal on the basis that the contravention did not occur. You were not at that location.

 

If it is another name for the location where you actually were, then it needs a bit of looking into to see what's correct.

[s8n]

HI GUys.

Thanks for the response thus far.

Especially mentioning exhemption O.

 

On google Maps the road shows as Goit Side (Although the area around there has previously been named Goit Side).

Also i googled New Southgate, and that seems to be the name of a car park.

 

New South Gate - Google Maps

 

thanks

[green_and_mean]

Two grounds:

 

b) Exemption O applies: A vehicle waiting while a gate or barrier is opened/closed to allow access or departure to/from premises

 

???

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

[Jamberson]

HI GUys.

Thanks for the response thus far.

Especially mentioning exhemption O.

 

On google Maps the road shows as Goit Side (Although the area around there has previously been named Goit Side).

Also i googled New Southgate, and that seems to be the name of a car park.

 

New South Gate - Google Maps

 

thanks

 

I wouldn't rely on Google alone. I think you ought to ask the council for confirmation of whether there is a road called New South Gate, and where it is. They will have a department called Highways or something, who will be able to tell you, and you can explain to them why you are asking. If it's a different road, then you can appeal on that basis - forget the exemption issue. If they tell you it's another name for the road you were in, then that means the PCN might be enforceable.

[Michael Browne]

???

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

 

 

Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook - London Councils

 

Code 27: Page 33

Exemption O: Page 53.

 

Yes, I know it's London, unless out of all the A-Q exemptions which generally apply nationwide, for some reason exemption O doesn't apply in Bradford

[green_and_mean]

Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook - London Councils

 

Code 27: Page 33

Exemption O: Page 53.

 

Yes, I know it's London, unless out of all the A-Q exemptions which generally apply nationwide, for some reason exemption O doesn't apply in Bradford

 

The legislation gives the exemptions

[s8n]

So, i wrote to Bradford MDC.

I explained i was parked at the entrance to the building so i could get in and it was for a short while, while i got the key to open the gate.

 

 

There response was, that doesnt matter it was a dropped curb, and what i guess they where pedling as an educational email, there response here:

 

 

 

Going by Michael Browne's post (Thanks), i looked at the handbook and think, your right i would have contravened Code 27 (Page 33). Also, that i would fall under exemption Michael stated 'O', on page 53.

 

So now, how do i argue this case?

Do i just have to go through the Appeal, and would that cost me?

How would i argue that from the London Handbook, it shows that i would be exempt as i needed to open the barrier.

Or should i just pay the fine (£35 within 14 days, or £70 after), which i cant really afford right now.

[havinastella]

What 'code' was on the ticket?

[Jamberson]

Did you bring up the issue of the wrong location? That would be fatal to the PCN. If so, the rest is just a side-issue.

[s8n]

What 'code' was on the ticket?

 

It is Code 27.

I forgot to upload a copy of the ticket, here it is:

 

 

Did you bring up the issue of the wrong location? That would be fatal to the PCN. If so, the rest is just a side-issue.

 

Hi, unfortunately not, i thought it wouldnt really have grounds, as it was too difficult to find out what the name was from the council it self.

[Pocket Nines]

Did you bring up the issue of the wrong location? That would be fatal to the PCN. If so, the rest is just a side-issue.

 

It's confusing but still possible.

A Bradford MDC version of a google map calls it Goit Side as Op suspects --- but an NCP car park, next door to his car park, claims to be in said New Southgate. the back of the NCP is on 'Southgate' incidentally. that comes off of Sundridge road whereas Goit Side comes off Thornton Rd.

 

It should, I agree be fought on that but it doesn't much matter if New Southgate is correct; How can he be obstructing a DK if the gate is locked? fairly sure an Adjudicator would see sense. I think there are cases on the 'fetching the keys' or 'waiting for access' situations.

[Michael Browne]

Although in your reps you failed to mention the exemption specifically, they have failed to address this point at all in their rejection.( which is procedural impropriety)

 

You need to wait for the Notice to Owner and then make formal representation on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

a) wrong location Goit Side not New Southgate

b) Exemption to allow a gate to be unlocked

c) Procedural impropriety - failure to address your appeal points.

[Pocket Nines]

Did you bring up the issue of the wrong location?

Hi, unfortunately not, i thought it wouldnt really have grounds, as it was too difficult to find out what the name was from the council it self.

Although in your reps you failed to mention the exemption specifically, they have failed to address this point at all in their rejection.( which is procedural impropriety)

 

Eh?

[s8n]

Hi Guys.

So i finally got through to the highways department and they have now confirmed according to the OS Maps the street is in fact called New Southgate, although he couldnt find a description in the street descriptions list.

 

However the http://www.getamap.ordnancesurveyleisure.co.uk/ shows it as Goit Side still.

 

Confusing!!!

Additionally i have checked the street and there are no signs what so ever stating the street name.

 

Also if i was to make a representation, if it went against me, would i have to pay the full fine, or could they still discount it?

 

Is it worth me contacting them again before the end of the 14 days, and outlining the exhemption and that i was not parked on a street that was clearly identified as New Southgate?

 

Although in your reps you failed to mention the exemption specifically, they have failed to address this point at all in their rejection.( which is procedural impropriety)

 

You need to wait for the Notice to Owner and then make formal representation on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

a) wrong location Goit Side not New Southgate

b) Exemption to allow a gate to be unlocked

c) Procedural impropriety - failure to address your appeal points.

 

Do you know how or where i would find the procdures so i can quote that in the representation?

 

 

Eh?

 

What do you mean?

 

Thanks all.

[Jamberson]

Hi Guys.

So i finally got through to the highways department and they have now confirmed according to the OS Maps the street is in fact called New Southgate, although he couldnt find a description in the street descriptions list.

 

Good work, but their answer raises further questions. I think you need to get back to them, as they seem to be referencing a third-party map.

 

In order to enforce parking regulations there, the Council needs to have a legal description of the regulations called a Traffic Order. You can ask for a copy, and they should supply one to you free of charge. They have to have a traffic order for "New Southgate" (or "New South Gate") in order for the PCN to be valid. Without that, then you have a real case against them. With it, sadly not - so it's important to see a copy with your own eyes, and confirm what the location is described as.

[s8n]

Good work, but their answer raises further questions. I think you need to get back to them, as they seem to be referencing a third-party map.

 

In order to enforce parking regulations there, the Council needs to have a legal description of the regulations called a Traffic Order. You can ask for a copy, and they should supply one to you free of charge. They have to have a traffic order for "New Southgate" (or "New South Gate") in order for the PCN to be valid. Without that, then you have a real case against them. With it, sadly not - so it's important to see a copy with your own eyes, and confirm what the location is described as.

 

Hi, Thanks for your response.

I have just sent them an email to request the Parking Order for New Southgate. will keep us updated as soon as I hear back.

If they send a copy of it, can i still appeal on the grounds of the Exhemption?

 

Thanks

[Jamberson]

I'm no expert on the exemption argument. Personally, given that a link to the TMA was given for dropped kerb contraventions, which doesn't contain such an exemption, I don't think it's a go-er - but someone else can advise you better.

 

This is the link posted earlier: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

[s8n]

So i called the council to ask if i would have another 14 days to pay the discounted rate if my Official representation was rejected.

The girl immediately got deffensive saying we cant tell you what to do. So i stopped her, told her to not get deffensive and listen carefully to my question.

 

She then responded I quote "It depends on the person that looks at it." In disbelief i said really? She confiremd really. I then said so there is no official process to govern that, she said no.

 

WHAT THE ****

[s8n]

I'm no expert on the exemption argument. Personally, given that a link to the TMA was given for dropped kerb contraventions, which doesn't contain such an exemption, I don't think it's a go-er - but someone else can advise you better.

 

This is the link posted earlier: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

 

I would be applying under:

 

5)The fourth exception is where—

 

(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,

©the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes

[Michael Browne]

You can only make formal representations in response to the Notice to Owner, by which time the discount is no longer available.

 

However, councils have been known (rarely) to re-offer the discount when they reject your formal representation, since they can do this at their discretion, but that's usually where even though they've rejected, but they think you might have a case at adjudication and are hoping you fold rather than risk the full penalty at adjudication.