Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

[green_and_mean]

If the road is for buses only at that time the sign is non compliant it should say 'no left turn except buses' if its two lanes with a bus lane on the left and other traffic running alongside its correct.

[green_and_mean]

Anyone with a little common sense would know not to turn left during the stated time period.

Pay the fine if there is one and note the lesson.

 

Anyone with any knowledge of the law would think you were an idiot but that doesn't really help the op anymore than your stupid advice.

There should be a no left turn 7am to 7pm except buses and cycles sign to go with the bus lane sign without it its not correct a bus lane as shown on the sign should have a lane alongside for cars but its actually a bus only route not a bus lane which is not clear due to the lack of signage. The writing on the road should also state bus and cycle lane so thats wrong to.

[green_and_mean]

hmm,I aint the one with a bus lane ticket though am I?,Im not going on the likes a here and pepipoo crying about it? ,rds if I was you I would go all the way with your bus lane ticket and if it costs you thousands in court costs dont worry cos sailor sam and all the other folk that gave you the "non compliant" advice will pay your costs cos theyve told you you will be ok!,lol,,just come back here for the names and advice youve been given as evidence,lol,good luck with that one.

 

Your comments must be some of the most comical I have ever seen, rather than just admit you are wrong you just dig a bigger hole and make yourself look like an idiot!! Even when it has been clearly explained why no contravention took place you still fail to grasp the simple fact that the signage is wrong, even the governments own traffic sign manual states it is. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is and contribute to the PCN if the advice I have given is followed, I have never lost an appeal in 8 years so I will not be worrying too much!!

[green_and_mean]

yeah,the op should go all the way with it,even if it takes years and keeps mounting up,green and mean is gonna contribute to the costs if it fails so there you go rds,phone them up in the morning and tell them you aint paying them nothing and the reasons why,sorted.

 

I have an idea, if you are so convinced he is guilty and should pay why don't you offer to give the money you think he should send to the Council to charity should he win?

[green_and_mean]

A bus lane is by definition a 'lane' ie it runs alongside regular traffic, this is a bus only route so the sign should state no left turn except buses/cycles 7am to 7pm. The white sign is an advance warning sign it is not a restriction in itself this has been stated numerous times it is really that hard to understand? The restriction is at the start of the lane where it says 'no motor vehicles except taxis and buses' 7am to 7pm, the OP did not drive past this or any other restriction.

[green_and_mean]

Sign appears to be correct under 1994 Traffic signs regulations.

 

 

Correct for what?? The regs (btw the 1994 ones are outdated) do not state what the correct signage is it just says the sign means 'bus lane on road at junction ahead' it does not restrict any type of traffic!! There is also no variation of that sign to indicate if cycles, motorcycles or taxis are allowed in the lane so how would anyone know?? The answer is when you turn left there would be a blue restictive bus lane sign and an alternative lane if you are not in a permitted vehicle. You can argue until you are blue in the face but I have a whole list of qualifications that would tend to indicate I do know what I am talking about!!

[green_and_mean]

Surely the date covers this. Which legislation requires the actual day of the week?

 

2. The device must include a recording system in which—

(a)recordings are made automatically of the output from the camera or cameras surveying the vehicle and the place where a contravention is occurring;

(b)there is used a secure and reliable recording method that records at a minimum rate of 5 frames per second;

©each frame of all captured images is timed (in hours, minutes and seconds), dated and sequentially numbered automatically by means of a visual counter; and

(d)where the device does not occupy a fixed location, it records the location from which it is being operated.

 

No need for the day or the location (unless its a mobile camera), I do wish people would stop giving stupid advice it actually helps no one!!

[green_and_mean]

“The BusLane Enforcement Camera Handbook (Second Edition) Provisional” Publication No.41/06 published by the Home Office states:

Chapter5 Operational Requirements ----- 5.1.2

“Everyimage of the offence shall show, in addition to the offending vehicle, in theorder given: the date in days, month, and year, the time in hours, minutes, andseconds, the day of the week, location and frame count from the beginning ofthe recording. The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in theviolation record at the time the offence is recorded.”

Does that help you any ?

 

Sorry you said it was a legal requirement, not that it was mentioned in a handbook intended for those manufacturing cameras?? The manual gives those making cameras guidance on meeting the type approval criteria it has nothing to do with what is required by law on the footage, a camera system is either approved or it is not. The manual also only applies to automatic systems used outside of london not those operated by a cctv operator.

 

This handbook describes the technical requirements for Home Office type-approval of certain types of bus lane enforcement cameras which are prescribed devices for the purposes of road traffic legislation. The handbook is intended to be a reference for manufacturers wishing to develop or sell existing products for use in the enforcementof bus lanes in Great Britain. The handbook contains not only a list of technical requirements but also guidance on methods of measurement, and the procedures to be followed in seeking type-approval.

The technical procedures described in this document are intended as a guide to manufacturers and their agents. The procedures will be updated from time to time and amended versions of this guide will be issued subsequently.

[green_and_mean]

But the fact that the camera does not meet the operational requirement, because it does not record the actual day should therfore render the camera non-compliant.

Because the handbook is for the camera manufacturers guidance does not change the fact that the camera does not meet the prescribed critera of the Home Office.

 

Have you actually read the book? So you're saying if the home office have approved a device you are going to challenge their own approval based on a guidance document, where are you going to do this in a judicial review? None of this would have any relevance to a PCN anyway since the camera device simply needs to be approved, not meet the guidance given to suppliers. I have already stated what legally needs to be on a frame of cctv footage, if you think the camera should never have been approved that is your opinion and something you need to raise with the Home office it has nothing to do with a PCN. All this argument is totally pointless anyway as the guidance is for 'automatic' un-manned devices and none of the threads you have accused the Councils of acting illegally refer to un-manned cameras and one is in London which doesn't even come under the legislation used in the booklet (which is clearly stated in it, if you bothered to read it properly).

[green_and_mean]

The majority of bus lane cameras are automated un-manned cameras, and the one that recorded my wife's alleged contravention was an automated camera, if you had bothered to read it properly you who have also noticed that.

Sorry, because we shouldn't be making remark like that to each other and it achieves nothing.

The majority of PCN of all kinds are issued as a money making exercise and that is illegal !!!

But, the chances of proving that are miniscule and would be fought tooth and nail by the authorities, so we need to find other ways of fighting this injustice and I was putting forward another way in which I hoped we could do this, and hoped to get some input on that subject not attract off the cuff remarks.

 

I didn't realise that you had done a survey of cctv cameras in the uk, or is the fact most are automated something else you have just made up? I would also add that the camera in Stuart st is manned by an operator unless they have changed it in the last few days. Surely if PCNs are just issued to raise money the chances of proving that would not be miniscule as you would have loads of evidence on which to draw that conclusion, unless of course thats not a fact but just your opinion? Maybe if you stuck to facts rather than fiction then you would not be getting 'off the cuff' remarks, you have also given someone else on another thread completely false advice which could actually cost them money if the advice is followed.

[green_and_mean]

The problem is the signage. The sign prior to the junction is the wrong sign for that location, it is not a bus lane it is a buses only route 7am to 7pm, and there are no signs indicating that, there should be a 'No Left Turn, 7am to 7pm' or similar sign at the junction to indicate the restriction.

 

 

If it was a bus lane, drivers could still turn left as there would be another lane for drivers to use - but not use the bus lane 7am to 7pm.

 

It has been mentioned before but the OP seems to prefere trying to look clever than getting on with getting his PCN cancelled.

[green_and_mean]

It was not a case of trying to look clever, it was a case of are there more than one infringements of the regulations occuring ? and then requesting advice about that; but because someone has a bit more knowledge than most on a subject it does not make them infallable, so why make sarky remarks such as "I didn't realise that you had done a survey of cctv cameras in the uk, or is the fact most are automated something else you have just made up?".

I do not just make scurrilous statements I quoted something I had read, although at the moment I am unable to find exactly where that statement come from.

Ref the TheBus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook, which you state as my use of information being "mentioned in a handbook intended for those manufacturing cameras"

It is also "mentioned" in the Department of Transport's Provisional guidance on bus lane (includingtramway) enforcement in England outside London. November 2005 (revised February 2008).

5.11. Guidance on automatic bus lane enforcement systems is also given by the Home Office Scientific Development Branch (HOSDB) in their publications The Bus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook – Provisional.

So it is not just some throw away publication as you seem to suggest, as for the Violation record, it is A record containing all the evidence of an offence produced by a bus lane enforcement camera, so maybe it does have some significance.

Anyway I have contacted to Council Parking Services who deal with these PCNs prior to the 14 days reduced "fine" deadline and outlined my concerns about the signage and also the day of the week situation on the PCN and requested that the PCN be revoked and advising them that I am prepoared to continue on to the official appeal hearing and if required onto PATAS, which they have advised me they have received and are now considering the points I have made and will be back in contact with me.

 

The camera used for your PCN was not automatic so none of your points are valid neither is Luton in London so threatening to go to PATAS will probably give them a good laugh.

[green_and_mean]

Thank you for that Raykay, I have already used that in my research so far and found it very helpful.

 

I actually quoted from it at the start of the thread as it has no mention of requiring the day of week something you seem to think is 'the law'.

[green_and_mean]

No doublt the 2 posters who kept badgering you to pay up will be along shortly to appologise!