Grounds for Southern Rail fine appeal

[MattSymes]

I bought a train ticket off the Southern Website with my 16-25 Travelcard, for £6.55. Today when I arrived at the barriers at Victoria, the inspector asked to see my Travelcard and I produced my photocard.

 

He asked where the rest of it was and I didn't know what he was talking about - I'm fairly certain that when I bought my travelcard that was all I got.

 

He issued me a £30 fine and asked me to pay £15 on the spot, but as I had no cash on me he said I could pay it all at once in 21 days. Now he said that if I can prove that I wasn't given the other half of the travelcard then I'll be able to appeal.

 

I'm 99% sure that I was never given the other card but I'm not going home for a few days so I won't be able to check for sure until then. So assuming that I do actually have this card somewhere, would I have any grounds for appeal? I mean at the end of the day; I bought a ticket and whilst I may not have had the whole travelcard with me, surely the photocard proves that I have one. I feel like the fine's pretty unfair, I've done nothing wrong.

 

I'm sure it might say in the small print somewhere that one card's not valid without the other, but he was well aware that I own a travelcard, seems like he's just splitting hairs. I've been using that travelcard for a few months now and usually no one checks it or if they do they've had no problems with it.

 

Cheers for any advice.

Edited September 7, 2013 by honeybee13
made a little easier on the eyes.

[seanamarts]

Welcome to CAG

 

I have edited your post so it is a little more easier on the eyes to read

 

Some one will be along shortly who can advise on what steps you can make to progress with this further

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'm not totally clear about what you're asking, but I hope the transport guys will be along soon. We're volunteers here, so you may need to bear with us until people are available, but it's not normally long.

 

My best, HB

[MattSymes]

Okay cheers. I'm basically just asking whether I'll have any grounds for appeal if I do actually own the other part of my railcard. I mean I can prove that I do own a valid railcard so I'm wandering if I'd still have to pay the fine.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

So you own the other part of your railcard but you didn't have it on the day, am I right?

 

What type of railcard do you have please? My [limited] understanding is that for a discounted ticket for example to be valid, you need the other part of the card.

 

Is that what you're saying has happened to you?

 

My best, HB

[MattSymes]

Well I can't check yet, but assuming I DO have the other half of the Railcard...

 

I have a 16-25 Railcard.I think you're right that technically you need both cards, but I didn't know that there even was another card. As long as I can prove that my Railcard's valid, why should I have to pay a fine? No harm's been done. It's just an honest mistake, it feels like I'm being asked to pay a fine when I've not done them any wrong. Also the fine seems excessive considering I bought a ticket, I'm pretty sure the fine would have been the same had I not even bought a ticket. Like I'm a student as well, £30 is quite a lot of money for me and I might be right in thinking that their policy is that you 'may' be issued a fine.Why do they feel they need to take extra money off me?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

As I said, I'm not an expert and they don't seem to be around tonight. My understanding is that if you buy a discount ticket, you need to have the accompanying card with you to show that you're entitled to the said discount. Is that a fair summary of what's happened to you please?

 

I think I've seen threads on the forum where someone has proved they have a railcard and seen some sort of leeway, but I think it could be wise to check the terms and conditions of your card and let us know what they say, if you could.

 

I understand your feelings about no harm being done, but I think you may need to understand more about how railway law works. People will hopefully be along to explain that later.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

MS, you have a private message from the site team.

 

HB

[Migster]

I think there are two 'flavours' of railcard - one where you get a single card that is a combined railcard/photocard and one where it comes in two parts. There are some examples here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?gs_rn=26&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=TTYUpOkuECMxMFIg8Sez3A&pq=16+-+25+railcard&cp=3&gs_id=i7&xhr=t&q=16-25+railcard&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=1680&bih=879&bs=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=QrkrUoOAIIPPhAetmYCQAw

 

If you have the two part variety, then all the photocard does is prove that you are the owner of the railcard, which is why you need to carry both parts.

[firstclassx]

You have no grounds for appeal. You forgot to bring the rest of your railcard.

 

You could have been prosecuted (Byelaw 18), but a Penalty Fare has been offered. If you do not pay the Penalty Fare, you can still be prosecuted for travelling without a valid ticket.

 

You signed the railcard conditions twice. Once on the application form, and once on the actual railcard, (the bit you forgot).

 

Incidentally, I find that people who carry only the railcard photocard, often "discover" that the actual railcard (which strangely enough isn't produced), has expired.

 

If I had been the RPI, I would have reported this (for prosecution), confiscating the photocard and ticket(s). If the other part was subsequently sent in, and was found to be valid (i.e. in date), then an administrative settlement amounting to the penalty fare would be offered. If nothing was sent in, or something expired was produced, I would proceed to prosecute.

 

Unfortunately I believe that you are misleading the forum and probably yourself when you say you didn't get issued the actual railcard. You presumably handed over the signed application form, money, passport pictures, proof of age/college/uni stamp - yet the ticket office only gave you a photocard that has no expiry date??

 

Regardless, even if they didn't give you the second piece, you did not have a valid ticket for your journey.

Edited September 8, 2013 by firstclassx

[Surfer01]

With all these silly rules and regulations in place to catch the unsuspecting public, no wonder people prefer to use private transport. I think I would rather pay to drive into the congestion zone and pay the fee than travel by train just in case I made an innocent mistake as I am not a regular user of the rail network. A lot simpler and less stressful!

[Nystagmite]

How is it silly to expect someone holding a discounted ticket to have the appropriate proof?

[Grotesque]

It still hasn't been established exactly what type of ticket it was. If it was a T/C, it only has one 'part'. However if it is discounted then it is only valid with the discount ticket. That is the only way it can have 'two' parts. End of. Since it is an absolute requirement to be able to present that card at the time of request, even sending it and the photocard in to the Appeal centre is unlikely to succeed. Although, like all things, it's probably worth a try: I just wouldn't hold your breath!

 

With all these silly rules and regulations in place to catch the unsuspecting public, no wonder people prefer to use private transport. I think I would rather pay to drive into the congestion zone and pay the fee than travel by train just in case I made an innocent mistake as I am not a regular user of the rail network. A lot simpler and less stressful!

 

An irrelevant post of no use whatsoever to the OP. Nystagmite speaks for me on this matter.

[firstclassx]

With all these silly rules and regulations in place to catch the unsuspecting public, no wonder people prefer to use private transport. I think I would rather pay to drive into the congestion zone and pay the fee than travel by train just in case I made an innocent mistake as I am not a regular user of the rail network. A lot simpler and less stressful!

 

What happens if you "forget" to pay the congestion charge?

 

What happens if you "forget" to display your parking permit?

 

What happens if you "forget" to wear your seat belt?

 

etc etc.

 

I assume the police/TfL just say, because it's private transport, it's just a mistake and you can carry on regardless?

[Surfer01]

What happens if you "forget" to pay the congestion charge?

 

What happens if you "forget" to display your parking permit?

 

What happens if you "forget" to wear your seat belt?

 

etc etc.

 

I assume the police/TfL just say, because it's private transport, it's just a mistake and you can carry on regardless?

 

I am saying that it seems to be easy for someone like myself to make a genuine mistake without realising I am doing wrong and reading these forums has put me right off using public transport and then being treated like a criminal just because I was unaware. I am not saying that all fare evaders are genuine, but it seems the system needs simplifying.

[Grotesque]

How much simpler could it actually be...?