Thomas Higgins Partnership Threatograom - Claim Now received

[Alipeeps]

Bit of background

- we are having a bit of a dispute with the cleaning company who used to do a weekly clean at our house.

We decided to let the company go, due to various issues,

not least of which was the fact that, for the third time in the 3 or so years in which they've been cleaning for us,

our macerator unti toilet became blocked with what turned out to be some kind of wet wipe/cleaning wipe.

 

On the two previous occasions that this happened, we shelled out for a plumber to unblock the unit (the first time)

and then replace the unit (the second time, the blockage caused the motor to burn out), at our own cost.

 

We were pretty darn sure that we were not responsible for putting any kind of wipe down the toilet

(we *know* that you can't put anything like that down there or it will clog!) but the cleaners denied all knowledge.

 

The third time was the final straw and we were adamant that this time we were not paying for the repairs ourselves as we know it was not us who clogged the unit.

 

when we notified the company that we were cancelling our contract, we also explained that we needed to get a plumber out to look at the unit

and that if it did turn out to be clogged with a wipe (which it did), we would be deducting the plumber's fees from our payment of their final invoice.

This we duly did, to the tune of £50.

 

The owner of the company has been quite aggressively contesting this,

even since we even mentioned the possibility (before the plumber had even come out and confirmed the problem)

and since we paid her invoice, minus the £50 plumber's fee, has sent a snotty letter threatening legal action

and demanding that we give her the plumber's details so that her solicitor can contact him

(and implying, in so many words, that we never actually had a plumber come out and do any work).

 

I sent her a letter back stating that I would ask the plumber to prepare a report detailing exactly what work he did

(I also took photos of him opening the unit and removing the wipe, as I foresaw this woman being arsey about all this - and have kept the wipe as evidence!!).

 

On the advice of CAGers, I don't see that her solicitor has any need to speak to the plumber unless things progress to small claims court.

 

after her threats of legal action,

 

I have now received a letter from The Thomas Higgins Partnership

demanding payment of the "outstanding amount" of £50 within 7 days or "proceedings will be commenced" etc etc etc.

This letter is clearly intended to suggest that she has hired solicitors to pursue things

 

however a quick google search revealed the true nature of The Thomas Higgins Partnership

and that she has purchased herself the services of one of their pro-forma threatograms for the princely sum of £2 +VAT.

 

So my question is,

how should I respond to this, if at all?

 

Should I write to them informing them that this alleged debt is under dispute and that they therefore have no legal standing to pursue it?

Should I just ignore it for the scaremongering threatogram it is?

 

I'd like to say I'm doubtful this woman will take us to small claims court over the relatively minor sum of £50

but then again she strikes me as a rather vindictive person (and somewhat dodgy to boot, from the way she runs her company) so it's possible she might.

 

I've no idea how such a court case might go though as it's essentially our word against hers...

we can prove we had the work done and how much we paid the plumber

but she claims her staff don't use cleaning wipes and would never put a wipe down a toilet but we know for a fact that it wasn't us.

 

I'm feeling very bloody-minded about this though as it's a matter of principle

and I don't want to be bullied into paying up for fear of having court costs awarded against us.

 

Does anyone have any experience of small claims court and what the likely outcome of such a case might be?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Seminole]

I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that litigation is all about risk. If the case goes to court what is the risk of losing and what is the consequence?

 

If the other person makes a claim your risk is that she wins. It's impossible to know what will happen with certainty but on the facts you've provided, you would certainly have a strong chance of defending the claim particularly if you are able to produce a report or other evidence from a reputable plumber. These things are never risk free and a solicitor could advise you properly but this would be at your expense.

 

The consequence of losing is that you would have to pay the £50 plus interest at an annual rate of 8% plus the court fee for the claim (£25 to £35 depending on how the claim is filed).

 

You have to decide whether to take the risk and whether you are prepared to make your case in front of a judge. A solicitor would make this easier but in these cases, each side usually bears their own costs. Defending a claim would also take up some time and be quite stressful. However, if you are OK with this, I think you have a reasonable defence and I would just ignore the threats and deal with it if a claim is made.

[citizenB]

I would agree with Seminole.

 

I would imagine the court would decide that this is a claim that could benefit from mediation and almost certainly direct you to use their mediation service.

 

You could call her bluff and advise that you are willing to defend your corner, with the evidence you have. They would be entitled to see that evidence but they would need to request it under CPR rules.

 

Small claims court is relatively cost free unless one side is believed to have behaved unreasonably. IMHO, it is the company who is causing you problems who appears to be behaving unreasonably !

[Alipeeps]

Thanks very much for both your replies.

 

To clarify on the small claims court issue...

if I do let her take me to court (if she takes it that far), which, to be honest, is my inclination here,

 

if I lost the only thing I would be liable for is the original "debt", interest and court filing fees?

Or would she also be able to make me pay her solicitor's fees?

I can live with possibly having to pay e.g. £100 if we lost,

but I know how quickly solicitor's fees can mount and that could add considerably to the amount.

 

On the issue of what to do with the threatogram,

if I am happy to let things progress to small claims court,

do I just ignore the threatogram?

 

Or should I send a letter advising them the debt is in dispute and to cease pursuing it

(I'm leaning towards not sending such a letter as she's clearly not actually even hired them to collect the debt,

has just paid a minimal fee for a proforma threatogram to try and scare us into paying).

 

Also, am I right in thinking that her only course of action to get us to pay this "debt" is small claims court?

She can't actually hire a DCA like Thomas Higgins to pursue the debt can she?

[citizenB]

If you were to lose, you would be responsible for the original debt + the court filing fee.

 

She would be absolutely mad to engage a solicitor for a £50.00 claim !!

 

I rather suspect that it would not be in her interests to hire someone like Thomas Higgins to chase this, especially if you have previously made it quite clear that there is a dispute (these companies do not like getting involved in disputed accounts) and that you have evidence to rebut her vexatious claim.

 

At the end of the day, it has to be your choice.

[Alipeeps]

If you were to lose, you would be responsible for the original debt + the court filing fee.

 

She would be absolutely mad to engage a solicitor for a £50.00 claim !!

 

That's what I think too!

But I have to say, my dealings with the woman have not impressed me with her rationality

and I do wonder if she may actually be vindictive/unreasonable enough to do so just as a matter of principle!

This, after all, is a woman who despite having liability insurance in case of breakages/damage

(which, lets face it, are going to happen occasionally when cleaning people's houses) refuses to use it

and takes the costs of any damage done etc out of the (minimum) wages of her employees!!

I'm not sure that's even legal! :/

 

I rather suspect that it would not be in her interests to hire someone like Thomas Higgins to chase this, especially if you have previously made it quite clear that there is a dispute (these companies do not like getting involved in disputed accounts) and that you have evidence to rebut her vexatious claim.

 

I hope not.

I'm quite happy to let her take me to small claims court (especially if I won't have to pay her solicitor's fees if we were to lose)

but I don't need the hassle of dealing with unscrupulous DCAs

- cos we all know how well they listen when you tell them a debt is disputed.

[Seminole]

The only way you could end up bearing her costs would be if the claim was allocated away from the small claims track. This only happens if the claim is very large (more than £10k) or if an important point of law is raised. I would say that this would be extremely unlikely in this case to the point where you can discount it as a possibility.

[Alipeeps]

Thank you so much for your advice, both of you.

 

I am reassured to know that solicitor's fees are extremely unlikely and that reaffirms that I have no intention of being bullied into paying her this money,

and being out of pocket because of damage done by her company.

 

I shall happily ignore the threatogram and she can take me to small claims court if she wants.

Especially as I have emails from her in which she

a) initially states that "if that's the case then obviously we will pay for any damage"

when I mentioned that if the problem did turn out to be a wipe in the unit,

it was not put there by us

(she later changed her tune to "my staff would never do this") and

 

b) states that if this is the case she will be making the cleaning staff pay for the damage (i.e. take the £50 out of their wages).

[FightToTheEnd]

Thomas Higgins are a (relatively) well known debt collection solicitor firm who aim their services at small businesses.

Their USP is that they will send out an initial demand letter for a flat fee of something like £1.99. Many small businesses do this as a last resort or to look "serious".

 

If you then use them to issue proceedings etc then the costs rise rapidly, in line with other solicitors. I would be very surprised if this goes any further. Ignore IMO.

 

Google Thomas Higgins and you'll see what I mean.

[Alipeeps]

Well today brings another love letter from Thomas Higgins Partnership.

 

As I suspected, it looks like the mad woman is actually vindictive enough to incur the costs of taking me to court - over £50!!

 

Am going to try and put the scanned letter up here:

 

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Would appreciate advice on the following questions:

 

Is she actually taking me to court, or is the wording "we have today forwarded the appropriate details for the purpose of issuing a claim" more DCA mumbo-jumbo designed to make people think court action is imminent and scare them into paying?

 

If she is actually progressing to court action, is County Court the same thing as Small Claims Court? Do all prospective claims get sent to this Bulk Centre and cases like mine would then be allocated to Small Claims Court?

Can THP inflate the "debt" the way they have by adding on not only the court fee but "fixed costs" of £50? Surely they can't charge me for solicitors' costs and fees, which I am assuming this amount represents?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Yes she is making a claim, you will shortly receive a 'claim pack' from the court, the Northampton Court is a processing centre, if this goes to a hearing it will be transferred to your nearest count court.

 

When you receive the pack follow the instructions on acknowledging 'service' and defending the claim.

The court fee is payable if you loose the fixed cost is the solicitors fee which you also have to pay if you

loose the case.

Yes this is a small claims case.

 

You have what seems to be a clear defence, imo the claim could be considered vexatious.

[Alipeeps]

Yes she is making a claim, you will shortly receive a 'claim pack' from the court, the Northampton Court is a processing centre, if this goes to a hearing it will be transferred to your nearest count court.

 

When you receive the pack follow the instructions on acknowledging 'service' and defending the claim.

The court fee is payable if you loose the fixed cost is the solicitors fee which you also have to pay if you

loose the case.

Yes this is a small claims case.

 

You have what seems to be a clear defence, imo the claim could be considered vexatious.

 

Thanks for your help. Am a bit confused though as advice given above was that in a case such as this I would not have to pay her solicitors' fees if I were to lose the case?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I think Citizen Bs post means the woman would be foolish to pay a solicitor to chase £50 and so incurring costs.

[Alipeeps]

I think Citizen Bs post means the woman would be foolish to pay a solicitor to chase £50 and so incurring costs.

 

I was referring more to Seminole's comment:

 

The only way you could end up bearing her costs would be if the claim was allocated away from the small claims track. This only happens if the claim is very large (more than £10k) or if an important point of law is raised. I would say that this would be extremely unlikely in this case to the point where you can discount it as a possibility.

 

I've also done a bit of research online about costs associated with Small Claims court and found information, for example from adviceguide.org.uk, that:

 

In

most cases, the court will not order solicitors’ costs to be paid by the losing

party in a small claims case, and if you instruct a solicitor you will have to

pay the costs yourself.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

In most cases not all .

[Alipeeps]

In most cases not all .

 

Riiight... but my understanding is that it is therefore not usual for solicitors' costs to be awarded against the defendant (if they lose)? Either way, it would seem THP are jumping the gun somewhat by adding fees onto the amount. Am guessing that the amount applied for in their court claim papers will be only the £50 alleged debt and the court fee?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

You could counter claim for the costs of the plumbers bills.

[Alipeeps]

You could counter claim for the costs of the plumbers bills.

 

Sorry, am confused now...

 

The £50 she is chasing us for *is* the cost of the plumber's bills, which we have deducted from our payment of her final invoice.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Ahh I see, must have misread the earlier posts, still think you have an excellent defence anyway, as you know how that toilet unit works and so would not put inappropriate material through that system which only leaves one culprit.

[Alipeeps]

Ahh I see, must have misread the earlier posts, still think you have an excellent defence anyway, as you know how that toilet unit works and so would not put inappropriate material through that system which only leaves one culprit.

 

Indeed. And definitely not 3 bl00dy times! :/

And hubby has also pointed out that on each of the 3 times this has now happened,

it's always been when there has been a cleaner who was new to our house

(we used to get a team of two cleaners each week - usually the same experienced lady each week (unless she was ill/on holiday) and one other,

and the other would often change as they seemed to give new staff to this more experienced lady for her to train) working that week.

 

I also have it in writing from the company owner (in her emails to me) that she would be making the staff who cleaned that week pay the £50 plumber's fee,

which raises the interesting question of whether she (the owner) is even out of pocket on this

and also goes some way to undermine any "testimonials" she gets from her staff claiming that they would never put anything down the toilet,

seeing as they know they will get made to pay the costs of any damages incurred during their cleaning.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Well I would guess somebody has persuaded the 'owner' to take this course, it will be interesting to see the particulars of the claim when it arrives.

I think she has greatly reduced if not extinguished any merit the claim may have had which I think was minimal from the start.

Keep the e-mail safe.

[Alipeeps]

Well I would guess somebody has persuaded the 'owner' to take this course, it will be interesting to see the particulars of the claim when it arrives.

I think she has greatly reduced if not extinguished any merit the claim may have had which I think was minimal from the start.

Keep the e-mail safe.

 

Oh I don't think anyone has persuaded her...

she is the company owner and it would appear that she's a rather odd, vindictive person.

 

It makes absolutely no sense for her, financially-speaking, to pursue this as it will likely leave her out of pocket but she is doing so nonetheless.

 

Part of the reasons we were considering terminating our contract with her company (even before the final straw of another toilet blockage)

was the rather dodgy way she runs her company (the fact that she makes her staff pay for damages instead of using her liability insurance,

the fact that she pays them well below the going rate for petrol costs so they lose money travelling to the various premises they clean,

the fact that she doesn't comply with corporate governance requiring companies to

e.g. have their registered office address on their headed paper,

and the fact that despite informing us that she was going VAT-registered,

she still did not have a VAT number on her invoices 6 months later)

and her rather aggressive, defensive behaviour, unprofessional behaviour when questioned about things like the VAT number

(she eventually gave me the VAT number but explained that, to avoid losing business by increasing her prices to include VAT,

she was only charging VAT to businesses (which can claim it back)

and that for individual customers like ourselves, she was paying the VAT element herself..?).

 

She's just altogether a strange and vindictive woman. :/

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Oh I don't think anyone has persuaded her... she is the company owner and it would appear that she's a rather odd, vindictive person. It makes absolutely no sense for her, financially-speaking, to pursue this as it will likely leave her out of pocket but she is doing so nonetheless. Part of the reasons we were considering terminating our contract with her company (even before the final straw of another toilet blockage) was the rather dodgy way she runs her company (the fact that she makes her staff pay for damages instead of using her liability insurance, the fact that she pays them well below the going rate for petrol costs so they lose money travelling to the various premises they clean, the fact that she doesn't comply with corporate governance requiring companies to e.g. have their registered office address on their headed paper, and the fact that despite informing us that she was going VAT-registered, she still did not have a VAT number on her invoices 6 months later) and her rather aggressive, defensive behaviour, unprofessional behaviour when questioned about things like the VAT number (she eventually gave me the VAT number but explained that, to avoid losing business by increasing her prices to include VAT, she was only charging VAT to businesses (which can claim it back) and that for individual customers like ourselves, she was paying the VAT element herself..?).

 

She's just altogether a strange and vindictive woman. :/

There you have another positive line of defence the claim is vexatious.

[citizenB]

If the claim is issued you have a time line to adhere to.

 

Issue date + 5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge + 14 days to submit a defence.

 

If you receive a claim form, then please let us know as soon as possible - the date of issue which will at the top right corner and also the exact wording on the claim form - the reason she is making the claim.

 

Then we can advise you further.

[Alipeeps]

If the claim is issued you have a time line to adhere to.

 

Issue date + 5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge + 14 days to submit a defence.

 

If you receive a claim form, then please let us know as soon as possible - the date of issue which will at the top right corner and also the exact wording on the claim form - the reason she is making the claim.

 

Then we can advise you further.

 

Thank you. Will come back for advice on submitting my defense once the claim form is received.