Ebay buyer threatening small claim

[Sazeasy]

Hello, I will try and be brief. Alloys sold on ebay with full photos and honest (including faults) description. Highest bidder wins, pays and decides to arrange his own courier.

 

Aggressive contact from buyer claiming items not as described on 2 of 4 wheels and ebay dispute issued by him immediately. Ebay claim complied with hy seller, request by seller for photos of alledged damage. Photos received, no way to tell if these are same wheels but half of buyer's ipayment offered as gesture of good will.

 

Further and increasingly aggressive emails from buyer recived, as not happy with that. Again seller complies with Ebay investigation and in addition does not geto into personal retorts with buyer.

 

Ebay rules in favour of buyer and requests buyer to return alloys, providing tracking number and requests seller to refund full payment once received. Money placed on hold by paypal.

 

Seller waits. Nothing. 1 week later buyer emails seller with very aggressiveo tone stating that he refuses to comply with ebay request to return items as this will cost him.

 

He states he intends to pursue a small claim for cost of alloys and the courier fee he paid and in addition requires proposals for how seller intends to collect alloys.

 

Email from Ebay informing seller that dispute now closed due to non contact from buyer.

 

What to do? Pay the money given the threat of court action? Is it likely this person will then pursue more money in addition for return or indeed his disposal of the wheels?

 

Hugely dissapointed to have been stung. An honest private seller who has tried to negotiate based on trust alone of buyers account of received condition.

 

Very reluctant to allow this to drag on. Very reluctant to have to deal with this aggressive man any further. Yet also very doubtful given the number and manner of his correspondance that this was not pre planned move.

 

He states he will win as ebay ruled in his favour. He states he has every intention of pursuing matter without further warning if he is not given what he wants.

 

Has anybody experienced similar? What rights does the buyer and seller have in these circumstances?

 

Thank you, any advice would be appreciated

Edited April 30, 2013 by citizenB
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[biggeorge]

If he has not returned the items as EBay stated then he will loose in any court action.

EBay stated to him to return the items for a full refund, His mistake for not returning them.

 

In the Email from Ebay informing seller that dispute now closed due to non contact from buyer?

Did EBay find in your favor and not refund the money to him?

 

If you have the money and he has his goods but he failed to return them after complaining he is at loss,

His mistake and I would get on with life and ignore him most likely empty threats like a DCA.

 

George

[steampowered]

If you fully and fairly pointed out all the problems and his complaints are not reasonable, then I would be tempted to ignore him and let him get on with it. It is unlikely he would start small claims proceedings, given the court fee of £35-ish and the hassle it would cause him. If he does start proceedings it would be hassle, but it is not rocket science and you could defend the claim as follows:

 

Your first ground of defence would be that all faults were fully and fairly pointed out in the listing, so there was no breach of contract.

Your second ground of defence would be the ebay user agreement (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/user-agreement.html) which is incorporated into the contract between you and him. This agreement states that "eBay sellers shall comply with our resolution process. Buyers and sellers permit us to make a final decision, in our sole discretion, on any case that a buyer files with eBay under the eBay Buyer Protection policy". The Buyer voluntarily submitted his dispute to eBay under that policy instead of going to court and, under the contract between you and him, is now bound by eBay's decision

[Sazeasy]

Thank you. I guess the main issue is that despite going over the wheels with a toothcomb, cleaning them to photograph any faults and including these in description is that he claims there are cracks and therefore not as described. Whilst we feel sure we would have noticed these he has submitted photos. Our photos are of front of wheels, his are of the back, so it is difficult to tell if they are the same wheels. If we have missed it we are happy to issue refund, which is why we fully complied honestly and openly with Ebay investigation.

 

This man is very aggressive. He wants not only the refund, but us to reimburse his own courier fee (arranged privately by himself so I guess not covered by Ebay decision) AND wants us to arrange their collection.

 

His threat of Court is causing us some worry so the temptation is to refund him, including his courier fee but to then pay a courier fee on top to get them back is too much. I fear that if we issue refund plus his courier fee (and put it down to experience) that he will then ho ahead and issue a small claim for his costs of disposal. Seems far fetched I know but honestly if you could read this mans communications you would understand my concern.

[Bazooka Boo]

Print off all his emails and use these in your defence.

 

Tell him to go right ahead and issue a small claim, as he has failed to send the items back and persists in his aggressive attitude, you will be only too pleased to robustly defend any claim he feels he has.

[Sazeasy]

Sorry biggeorge I didn't see your response initially. Yes, though he initially won his claim through Ebay and a hold was placed on the paypal funds, it has now been closed due to non contact from buyer and the hold has been released on the money.

 

Bit of a mess really insomuch as he clearly states in his most recent email that his claim would be won in court based on fact Ebay ruled in his favour. Not sure what legal bearing it has that he then did not comply with their request. I presume he is unhappy that Ebay did not instruct us to refund his courier fee. We offered to arrange courier as it happens and this may have then been covered for him as it would again have been payed via paypal.

 

Our intention is not to keep someones money if they are unhappy that it is not as described but without the items being returned I cannot even verify that this is the case and have to wonder if he is banking on this by not returning them then making threats of court action.

 

It was he who escalated it immediately to Ebay investigation without any initial contact expressing his concern and frankly reading the emails back that were sent/received prior to dispatch I do wonder if it was premeditated. He is a classic car business of some sort. But of course now does not have the full resolution he was seeking from Ebay so seeks this elsewhere.

[steampowered]

What fees is he asking you to reimburse him for - why are there two couriers involved?

[Bazooka Boo]

Ebay has NO legal bearing whatsoever, he is trying to intimidate you.

 

He either sends the goods back, or he gets zilch.

Tell him that once he has returned the goods, you will reimburse him.

[Sazeasy]

Sorry I was a bit unclear there. There is only one courier. It is one he arranged privately. I simply meant that in the initial listing courier delivery was offered if not collecting in person. Had he of done this rather than arranging privately maybe this would also have been covered for him by Ebay ruling? The fees he wants reimbursing are the ones he paid to his courier for collection. Of course he also wants us to pay for their return/disposal. Not sure whether the fact we could arrange return means he is confident of the cracks he claims are on the wheels or whether he is banking on us saying forget it heres your money, keep the wheels.

 

We spent ages carefully wrapping these in accordance with this guys specific instructions on how the courier would accept them too. He claims 2 of the 4 wheels are cracked. He has submitted photos to support this. How do we know these were not cracked in mishandled transit? How do I know he hasnt simply changed his mind, done the damage in hope of returning them?! Sounds dramatic I know but these wheels came off our own car, where washed and photographed (unfotunately only to front where the chips/damage etc where on the alloys), I cant help but think we would have noticed cracks to our wheels!

 

In his photo he has elaborately strewn all the packaging to emphasise his disgust at the content. Its crazy.

[Sazeasy]

Thank you for all the replies. Its terrible to be held randsom so someones aggresssion and feel like loosing money just so that we no longer

[Sazeasy]

Sorry, submitted prior to finnishing that!

 

Just so we no longer have to be bombarded with this mans aggression and threats. I do feel we should just say that refund will be given on return on goods but nothing more but then if he goes ahead and issues a small claim we could be looking at that plus his fees plus losses etc if Court ruled in his favour. I feel sure the Court would not accept his unwillingness at any negotiation or mediation but its a risk, so is it just cutting our noses off to spite our face?

[Bazooka Boo]

Seriously, TELL him, when he returns the goods ONLY then will you reimburse him.

 

Any threat of a small claim WILL be robustly defended, you will not be held to ransom, nor will you be subject to any further threats or intimidation he sends you, if he continues you will report him to your local police for harassment.

 

What is the name of his Garage? If you have his name, you can find out if he has done this type of thing before.

[boswell]

Having read through this thread he sounds like a nasty piece of work, quite frankly I would do what others have suggested and tell him no return - no refund. He has ignored the mediation that he instigated and that certainly goes in your favour. Let him threaten all he likes, if he dares to issue proceedings he I'm sure he will be found at fault.

As already suggested, keep copies of all his correspondence to help your defence in the unlikely event he goes ahead with his threat.

As a regular ebayer it makes my blood boil when u get buyers like this.

Whats his buying feedback like, not good I bet !!!.

[steampowered]

In this case the buyer submitted the dispute to eBay. The eBay Buyer Protection Policy, which is part of the ebay terms and conditions he signed up to, clearly states that once a case is filed with eBay their decision is final. He seems to think the court would agree with eBay's decision, but of course if their decision is binding on the court it is also binding as to the courier fee. If he does convince the court to re-examine the dispute it will be much more difficult for him to convince a court the wheels were not fit for purpose than it was for him to convince ebay.

 

Personally I would send this guy an email/message stating that you are prepared to comply with eBay's resolution and explaining that it is binding on him. Alternatively you could state that he has missed his chance as eBay closed the dispute. Either way just call his bluff and ignore any further correspondence, nothing to be gained from arguing with him - state your terms and simply ignore him if he doesn't accept.

 

The "worst case scenario" is that he goes to small claims and wins. Generally speaking, if a seller provides goods that do not comply with the contract then the buyer should not be left out of pocket. If a court decided that the wheels are genuinely faulty/cracked beyond what was described in the listing, then I think he would be awarded the courier fee as damages. So the worst case is he gets awarded the cost of the wheels plus the courier fee plus the court fee (around £35) - so the risk to you over what he is asking for is about £35.

[Sazeasy]

Thank you to you all for your replies. We have decided to reply to this man stating that we are prepared, despite ebays closure of the matter pending his non response, to remain faithful to the direction given by the ebay resolution process and on receipt of the wheels he can still have full refund. Its obviously a more long winded and carefully written piece than that but in a nutshell...no return, no refund. Will just have to sit back and see what happens. Can feel my ears burning already! Thanks again for giving us the faith and confidence not to be held ramdsom to bullying tactics.

[boswell]

Please keep us updated, I'm sure your going to get this sorted in your favour, eventually.

[adridude]

Just to add, if you read the Ebay terms and conditions there's something called 'Ebay Buyer Protection'. If the buyer doesn't comply with these HIMSELF, then ebay will reward you the money as they weren't interested.

 

If Ebay win in THEIR case and you don't pay up. Ebay will refund them, and then the amount owed if between you and ebay personally.

 

I had similar a problem with a seller and ebay refunded me the money, not the buyer.

 

Details of Ebay Buyer Protection: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/ebaybuyerprotection/

 

Don't bother contacting him.

 

If they leave negative feedback and ebay have favoured you, you can report the feedback and malicious and they will omit that particular entry from your list of feedback. Buyer protection is important to stick to as some people use ebay as a [problem]ming grounds! Ebay track people who repeat offend and take appropriate legal action eventually themselves against the offending person.

 

Do not contact them! Plain and simple, case is closed. Buyer protection deemed the buyer in the wrong due to wilful neglect of upkeep of the case (he had 21 days to answer). (working days if I remember right)

[Sazeasy]

Thank you. A quick update. The last email we sent to this guy was (content as mentioned above) on the 7th day of the 7 days he gave us to respond before Court action. He responded the same day stating he had gone ahead earlier and issued a small claim via MCOL. His letter was hostile again and he slipped up stating that if we didn't comply with his requests for everything...plus now the court fee...within 7 days of his email he would dispose of the wheels! (He meant within 7 days of of the Judgment he believes will be made in his favour). We didn't respond. We have left him to hang himself with this statement (so to speak). We received the claim and acknowledged its service and have today filed our defence. Didn't realise until I copied and pasted it into the system that we were only allowed 122 lines...mine was at least double that! So, have condensed it, tried to be as consise as possible. Quoted some of his correspondance, pointed out his limited timescales, his neglect to ask questions or inspect the wheels prior to purchase (bearing in mind that legally when buying from private seller the owness is on the buyer to satisfy himself of product suitability...unless he can prove purposeful misdescription...which I can't see how he can from pur listing description), his refusal to abide by a process he instigated and ended with the point that his final contact with us (which according to his claim form was his attempt at providing us with a detailed Statement of Facts!) was not responded to due to our feeling that it was tantamount to threats and ultimatums...and we must now presume the wheels have been disposed of!! (I don't think this will be the case).

 

Will have to ride it out and let the Court decide now.

[andydd]

You appear to be doing everything correct. Id add that the ebay process is not legally binding on a court but you could mention it and point out that the original ebay decision diesnt mean anything and it will be upto a judge to come to a decision.

 

Its worth you googling the general cpr pre action protocols and trying to comply with them all, by offering to agree with ebay and prepared to still refund when the wheels are returned will go in your favour.

 

Keep us updated.

 

Andy

[letsmakeamark]

Once ebay has ruled the buyer has to return the item within a give time scale. Which includes sending the item back via a tracked method. If this is not done in a certain time frame. The case is closed. Once this is done the buyer can do squat all. The buyer if he goes down the court route has to convince a judge that he/she has followed protocol and despite this has not been refunded. Personally if i was to buy these i would inspect them b4 purchasing or i wouldn't purchase them.

[Sazeasy]

Thank you for all the responses.

 

I've just noticed a possibly anomaly and I wonder if anyone has experienced similar.

 

On the Claim form the buyer gives an outline of particulars but states 'I will forward separate detailed particulars of claim to the defendant within 14 days of service of this claim'

 

The claim was issued my MCOL on 7th May and deemed served on 12th.

 

The last communication we had from the buyer was in response to our email dated 5th May whereby we reiterated out willingness to stand by Ebays decision and offer full refund upon return of the wheels. His email is dated 5th May, was via eBay account as opposed to our personal email and was headed 'without prejudice'. His opening line being 'I warned you I would initiate Court proceedings and this has been done today'. He goes on the reiterate his demands, in addition now to the court fee in order to suspend proceedings. This is also the email whereby he (presumably through typo) states he will dispose of the wheels within 7 days of his email.

 

Now without really considering the dates or indeed the content of his email I presumed this was his 'detailed particulars of claim'. I referred to it in the defence and made point of stating that I had to make this presumption. However...this is dated prior to issue of the claim...nowhere does it formally describe it as detailed particulars and it does not have the statement of truth endorsed.

 

So...my question is...is he now in breach of court protocol?? The claim details already on the N1 would have unfixed for issue really but does the fact he has stated his intention to serve the detailed particulars separately, and then failed to do so, count for anything??

 

I cannot contact MCOL until tomorrow now but I intend to do so to check whether he has filed a notice of service with them, which from what I've read he would have had to submit to the Court upon service of the detailed particulars to us.

 

I wish I'd have considered this earlier...prior to submitting our defence...because we have now defended a claim to which we have not received the full details of the Claim as the Claimant sees it.

 

Anyone?? Thank you

[Sazeasy]

I didn't mean 'unfixed'...should have said 'sufficed'...blooming auto correct!

[Seraphesfahan]

If he said he would deliver it within 14 days and hasn't, then he is indeed breaching the protocol. I looked at your opening post and he is incorrect that he will win because of eBay. He failed to comply with the eBay claims procedure. He had the option to receive a refund and refused in stubborn anger. Acquaint yourself with an affordable lawyer and ask what you can do to prevent too much of a headache.

[renegadeimp]

No need for a lawyer at all. The case is pretty straight forward as long as the OP has a paper trail to rely on in court. The claimaint obviously thinks he can bluff his way through the process, and probably doesnt realise the OP can simply request an in person hearing to force the claimant to show up and submit the evidence he is relying on.

[Seraphesfahan]

No need for a lawyer at all. The case is pretty straight forward as long as the OP has a paper trail to rely on in court. The claimaint obviously thinks he can bluff his way through the process, and probably doesnt realise the OP can simply request an in person hearing to force the claimant to show up and submit the evidence he is relying on.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I agree!! I said it just in case. Who knows what this guy can weasel into to make it into a legitimate case? Best to be prepared for anything that can possibly happen in any situation... Just in case.