Caution from Revenue Protection Officer

[marieiram]

I have a confession to make:

 

I regularly get onto a train and buy a ticket on the train

- I am told that this isn't allowed,

but it doesn't ever to seem to have caused a problem before

(I think this is one reason people get confused about the byelaws).

 

I buy a ticket, all is usually ok!

 

Today, I asked for a return ticket and the conductor told me that his machine was broken so he couldn't sell me one.

 

I had the cash in my hand to give him, so I clearly intended to pay.

 

It never occurred to buy a ticket on the way out as I was running late!

 

I wish it had though, was stopped and cautioned by a Revenue Protection Officer (which made me even later!).

 

I know you can't predict these things, but what is likely to happen next?

 

Would they prosecute for an £8 fare that I tried to pay?

[honeybee13]

I have a confession to make:

 

I regularly get onto a train and buy a ticket on the train

- I am told that this isn't allowed,

but it doesn't ever to seem to have caused a problem before

(I think this is one reason people get confused about the byelaws).

 

I buy a ticket, all is usually ok!

 

Today, I asked for a return ticket and the conductor told me that his machine was broken so he couldn't sell me one.

 

I had the cash in my hand to give him, so I clearly intended to pay.

 

It never occurred to buy a ticket on the way out as I was running late!

 

I wish it had though, was stopped and cautioned by a Revenue Protection Officer (which made me even later!).

 

I know you can't predict these things, but what is likely to happen next?

 

Would they prosecute for an £8 fare that I tried to pay?

 

Hello and welcome to CAG. The forum guys should be along later, but if you have a read around the forum you should get an idea of what happens when you don't buy a ticket before you travel.

 

It might help us to know which train company it is. But I know some of them are clamping down on people not buying tickets on the train. Technically, you should pay for a ticket before you board the train and I believe there are signs on stations that tell you that this is your responsibility as a passenger. You may have been lucky so far.

 

What will happen next is that the TOC will write to you telling you what offence they think you may have committed and asking for your version of events. It's likely to take some weeks. Once you get the letter, you can let us know and we can help you to draft a suitable reply.

 

In the meantime, may I suggest that you buy a ticket before you get on the train? You need to allow enough time to do this, as any further transgressions will make things worse for you, I'm afraid.

 

My best, HB

[marieiram]

Thanks for your quick response!!

 

I will probably just drive from now on...tbh, it's cheaper, I just like to read on the train. Is there not an odd contradiction between the NCOC and the Byelaws? The Byelaws state it's an offence to travel without a ticket, the NCOC say you can buy on the train but just not get any discounts?

 

To answer your question, it was a Virgin Train. The Revenue Protection lady wasn't train company specific though, I don't think.

 

I've been reading through the forums this evening, seems everyone's case is slightly different!

[honeybee13]

I know the cases are all different, sorry. I thought the main common thread was that passengers are responsible for buying a ticket. I can't answer about NCOC, I'm not a rail expert. Hopefully one will be along before too long.

 

HB

Edited April 11, 2013 by honeybee13
Typos.

[firstclassx]

Although it is a (criminal) Byelaw Offence, your circumstances would suggest the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889 will be used, as you made no attempt to purchase a ticket before (attempting to) leave. You therefore intended not to pay at the time that your fare was due, which, based on your version of events, is an open and shut Section 5(3a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence.

 

People are prosecuted for much less, so, the answer is yes, it is fairly likely you will be hearing from Virgin or another Train Operating Company in due course.

 

Had you not been stopped leaving the station, you would have simply walked straight out without paying.

 

If any person—

 

Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

 

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1000 on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding £1000 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

 

I suspect you live in the North West, (particularly Wigan/Preston or Warrington).

 

As for the NRCoC:

 

2. Requirement to hold a ticket

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the

train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

 

If you travel in a train:

 

(a) without a ticket; or

(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,

30, 35 and 39 apply;

 

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare

 

Doesn't say they have to sell you a ticket. You are just liable to pay that amount. On conviction, a court will usually rule that the fare must be paid in addition to the fine.

 

Section 1 also makes clear the Byelaws apply.

Edited April 11, 2013 by firstclassx

[marieiram]

Thanks - I expected to hear from someone. She said that the report would be written up to the legal department who would decide whether or not to "take it further".

I just don't really know what that means - from your post above you think it's likely that being a serious offence, i'll be sent to prison for 3 months and fined £1000? Is that really likely?

[honeybee13]

Thanks - I expected to hear from someone. She said that the report would be written up to the legal department who would decide whether or not to "take it further".

I just don't really know what that means - from your post above you think it's likely that being a serious offence, i'll be sent to prison for 3 months and fined £1000? Is that really likely?

 

Hello again.

 

That's the worst case scenario. If you're not a serial evader, from what I've read here neither of the above is likely. I would be amazed if you went to prison, the amount of fine is something the guys can give advice on.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

First offence, pleading guilty at first opportunity, letter of apology etc, likely to result in a fine of £200-£300, with costs of £100-£150, victim surcharge of £20-£30 and payment of the fare. So more around £500 for everything.

 

Plenty of time yet before it gets to that stage yet... if they do decide to prosecute, doesn't mean you'll actually go to court - usually one or two ways around it.

 

When you get a letter, come back on the forum and we can advise.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks - I expected to hear from someone. She said that the report would be written up to the legal department who would decide whether or not to "take it further".

I just don't really know what that means - from your post above you think it's likely that being a serious offence, i'll be sent to prison for 3 months and fined £1000? Is that really likely?

 

Forget the idea that you could be sent to prison for now.

 

If this is a first offence and if it results in conviction, you will be facing a financial penalty made up of a fine, costs, compensation and victim surcharge as firstclassx pointed out

 

Prison sentences for fare evasion are exceedingly rare and only arise when there serious is a history of repeat offending.

[marieiram]

Forget the idea that you could be sent to prison for now.

 

If this is a first offence and if it results in conviction, you will be facing a financial penalty made up of a fine, costs, compensation and victim surcharge as firstclassx pointed out

 

Prison sentences for fare evasion are exceedingly rare and only arise when there serious is a history of repeat offending.

 

Thanks. I will post the details of the letter when it arrives. I'm really hoping for a chance to offer to pay without going to court. I guess I won't know of the chances of that until the letter arrives? Thank you again for the advice.

[honeybee13]

Thanks. I will post the details of the letter when it arrives. I'm really hoping for a chance to offer to pay without going to court. I guess I won't know of the chances of that until the letter arrives? Thank you again for the advice.

 

You're right. The other thing that seems to affect whether you're allowed to settle or not [their choice] is the tone of your letter. Something written in your own words expressing remorse and a willingness to abide by the rules in future is likely to be helpful. What I've never seen work is a general rant about how unfair the system is or criticising the company personnel.

 

As you say, sit tight and then come back to us when you hear.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

Thanks. I will post the details of the letter when it arrives. I'm really hoping for a chance to offer to pay without going to court. I guess I won't know of the chances of that until the letter arrives? Thank you again for the advice.

 

If you do manage to settle out of court, it will be a hell of a lot more than the £8 fare though! Just bear that in mind.

[marieiram]

If you do manage to settle out of court, it will be a hell of a lot more than the £8 fare though! Just bear that in mind.

 

Oh yes, I get that. Not a lot I can do about that now though is there? Oh, for a time machine!!

[marieiram]

Ok, thought I'd come back and update you. A surprisingly positive outcome, under the circumstances. I got my letter today & have been asked to pay for the ticket, plus £50 costs. I can dispute, but obviously am not going to! Breathing a sigh of relief here...

[boswell]

That's good news, should make your weekend better, and of course you dont get a C.R. As honeybee says, get your ticket first or like you say use your car, good luck.

[BazzaS]

Ok, thought I'd come back and update you. A surprisingly positive outcome, under the circumstances. I got my letter today & have been asked to pay for the ticket, plus £50 costs. I can dispute, but obviously am not going to! Breathing a sigh of relief here...

 

 

Glad to hear it!.

 

I'm surprised that someone considered a 5.3, as you clearly intended to pay when you tried to buy the ticket on the train.

I suspect you'd have been in trouble if they had proceeded with a Byelaw 18 prosecution : avoiding a criminal record for £50 costs and the original fare seems a decent outcome.