service charge arrears

[wadada]

Hi all,

New to the forum, so please forgive me if this post is in the wrong section.

I owe about 4k (debt plus charges) in arrears over a few years, i was disputing some of the charges on the debt and i was taken to a small claims court by the managing agent. the courts sent me a form to fill which i did over two years ago, nothing came of it.

Now a new managing agent took over about a year ago, and i agreed to pay 100 pounds monthly to clear off arrears, which they agreed. 6months down the line they want the debt cleared within a year or they are going to pass it on to debt collector agency.

Please i need advice on what to do. I offered to clear the new service charge as not to affect the arrangment on the arrears. but they want it cleared within a year at over 300 pounds a month. All correspondence to the managing agent has been over the telephone.

thanks.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I'm going to move your thread to the lettings forum, although the guys there might feel that another forum might be appropriate later. If so, you can be moved again, but let's try this forum first because the guys are good.

 

I'll leave a short term redirect here for you to find the thread in its new home.

 

My best, HB

[wadada]

Thanks for your quick response.

[andydd]

What happened to the original court claim ? It wont just stop for no reason. If they discontinued it or it was struck out they may be barred from chasing you through court for the same amount agin. My freeholder has lost the ability to recover 3 years of service charges from me due to similar situation.

 

Do you wish to dispute any of the charges ? Were the demands sent in accordance with lease and law (for example did demands have summary of rights attached), even if payable you can dispute sc on grounds that they are excessive or unreasonable in amount at an LVT.

 

Andy

[renegadeimp]

Also STAY OFF THE PHONE. get everything in writing and only commjnicat in writing especially when courts are being mentioned.

[wadada]

hi thanks for your responses, part of the service charge was disputed in a small claims court and it was ordered that

 

1. the claim be stayed as it makes no serious attempt to comply with CPR16.4(1) by setting out a concise statement of facts. (Stylised particulars do not constitute compliance.) The Claimant must amend or substitute the particulars of claim by setting out the claimants case in plain in englishby 4pm 2 weeks from date of order.and in default the claim be struck out without further notice.

 

 

2. the defence be stayed as it makes no serious attempt to comply with CPR16.4(1) (same as above but 4 weeks from date of order)

 

I complied but never got any response back. please any questions or further info will be appreciated.

 

thanks

[andydd]

Was that the original claim was stayed due to cpr 16.4 ?

 

Its rare that both claim and defence dont comply, although if the claim was unclear you could of put in some sort of embrarrased defence (others here know more about this than me) as clearly you didnt realy know what you were defending against.

 

It may be worth visited court and asking about this claim, I assume that even if you complied then the claimant didnt and the case was struck out.

 

So, is the new/current amount owing the same/or partially the same as the original claim/amount ? If so, I would be tempted to stop paying the management agent, although technically the money would be woing, they cant start court action to recover it as yopu could simply argue that they have already tried in court once and it was struct out and it is an abuse of process to try again.

 

I was in similar position, FH took me to court, they didnt pay fee and it was struck out (as was their set aside appliaction), they then started court action for same service charges about a year later, I put in summary judgment and said abuse of process and it was struck out..now they cant ever chase me for that amount again, you may be in same position.

 

Andy

[ericsbrother]

when is the debt from? They can only go back so far (6 years) so anything older than that is statute barred and you dont have to pay it under most circumstances. As you have been paying off the debt the oldest debt will clear first unless otherwise stated in any repayment plan. Charges added are unenforceable so can be discoumted for purposes of ascertaing the amount of debt.

The court action carries no weight as it would require starting afresh.

I wouldnt take any notice of the threat to pass the debt on to a collection agency as the DCA has no legal powers, the new managing agents just want to get a cash lump sum by assigning the debt for a percentage consideration but are trying it on with you to see if you can pay for their holiday.

What charges have you paid the managing agents? I would be asking for those back as they are generally unlawfully applied. See other postings in the debt forum for letter templates etc

[wadada]

hi Andy,

Thanks for your response. I will contact the courts to find out. when i didnt hear from the court and the managing agent, i buried my head in the sand, instead of following up. its a yearly charge and the old arrears from the old managing agents was passed to the new agents. so now i owe old plus new service charge.The total amount owed is inclusive of the disputed amount. After the claims court the managing agents never wrote to me demanding anything until now.

 

thanks

[wadada]

Hi Ericsbrother,

 

the debt is less than 6 years old, the charges where added by the solicitors of the previous managing agents at the time. i told the new managing agents that part of the debt was in dispute, they claim to have nothing on their records about any court action from the previous managing agents. should i be requesting a full disclosure of everything they have on me? or should i wait for the DCA to contact me first. Dont really know where start from.....am lost.

 

thanks.

[andydd]

From what you have said then I wouldnt be paying anything towards the old/original amount that was the subject of court action.

 

They have had tgheir chnace in court to claim that amount and it would appear they cocked it up, and it was struck out..but worth checking with court, you should of been notified of the strike out (or asked for it at the time as soon as they didnt comply with court order, but thats with hindsight).

 

Did the first court claim actually breakdown amounts owing and for what year ?.

 

As pointed out the stat barred limit is 6 years BUT there is an 18 month limit for service charges, see S20B of Lanlord & Tenant Act 1985 > http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70 although they can get round this by complying with part 2 (sending you a demand at the time).

 

It is worth checking that any Sc demands they send you comply with first the lease, (i.e some leases say demands must be sent at certain times or comply with various clauses such as to be certified by accountant, etc) AND secondly with statute law, an obvious one being do they comply with S21B of LTA 1985 (i.e was a Summary of Rights attached, with right wording and correct font size).

 

What you need to do is get your lease, paperwork, demands, paperwork from court and scan it as pdf and post here (redacting names & addresses). Generally you can ignore DCA's although there is a risk that their cost can be recovered as a service charge (your lease will tell you whether this is possible).

 

Andy

 

Andy

[wadada]

thanks Andy,

 

the court case was in 2010, yes the court claim did breakdown the amount for the year the claim was made for,it was part of these amount that was in dispute . i will put everything together and post here, to give a clearer picture. in the mean time i was thinking is it not possible to demand a full record of what the managing agents have on me? this might throw more light on whats truely going on. as the new managing agent should have all records but they are claiming not to know anything.

 

thanks

[andydd]

Hi.

 

You can request to see a summary of service charges using S21 of LTA 1985 > (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70), although be aware this version is actually incorrect and not actually 'in force', this is discussed here at LandlordZone (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?43830-Leaseholders-Right-to-Summary-of-Expenditure-LTA-1985-s-21), although you still have a right to request a summary.

 

AND then further you can have some fun using S22, which (after youve got Summary) allows you to visit FH and nose through his documents (although this prob does just relate to service charges and not his holiday snaps !).

 

Although not sure if the above will help you as such..but basically I assume the Fh has stayed the same, the management agent is just an agent employed by the FH todo the day to day management, it is upto him to be aware of past disputes, amounts owing, etc..there are many LVt cases where there is a dispute and the MA knows nothing..the LH then often wins, as the MA has been unable to prove anything.

 

Are you aware of the LVT ?

 

Andy

[wadada]

Hi,

 

just spoke to the courts and was told there was a letter on the system showing the claim has been struck off. but the letter was address to the claimant and a copy cannot be sent to me. I was advice to write to the courts to request the a letter stating the outcome of the case. this is where am at. If I can be directed to a sample letter this would be very helpful. thanks in advance.

[wadada]

apparently the claimant did not comply to CPR16.4 (1).

[andydd]

I dont understand why a 'copy cannot be sent to you' !. As defendants surely should been informed if a case has been struck out !.

 

I dont believe it is neccassary to use a template or sample letter to request a copy of the order striking out the claim, just write an informal letter asking for a copy, even better pop along to the court with it and discuss it with the staff, they are often very helpful.

 

What you need to know is if any of the amounts claimed the second time are the same as amounts claimed the first time, if they are then you can argue that it is an abuse of process to try and re-litaigate the same issue again, the claimant had an attempt to try and set aside the first struck out (and even appeal that)_, he failed to do so.

 

I was in very similar situation, LL's claim was struck out (he didnt pay fee on time), he tried set aside, this also failed, he re-litigated same amounts again, I said..Oi !..thats abuse of process and went for summary judgment, I won AND got costs, and his claim for three years of service charges (about £2500) is now dead and there is no way he can recover it now.

 

Ive attached my Statement of Case which you may find useful.

 

Andy

[wadada]

Hi Andy, Thanks for all your help. I will take the letter in tommorow and let you know how it goes

[45002]

Hi all,

New to the forum, so please forgive me if this post is in the wrong section.

I owe about 4k (debt plus charges) in arrears over a few years, i was disputing some of the charges on the debt and i was taken to a small claims court by the managing agent. the courts sent me a form to fill which i did over two years ago, nothing came of it.

Now a new managing agent took over about a year ago, and i agreed to pay 100 pounds monthly to clear off arrears, which they agreed. 6months down the line they want the debt cleared within a year or they are going to pass it on to debt collector agency.

Please i need advice on what to do. I offered to clear the new service charge as not to affect the arrangment on the arrears. but they want it cleared within a year at over 300 pounds a month. All correspondence to the managing agent has been over the telephone.

thanks.

 

for reference http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?53892-service-charge-issues

[andydd]

As mentioned above, LandlordZone is very useful as is the Lease Advisory Service > http://www.lease-advice.org/

 

Andy

[wadada]

Hi,

just been to court, was given a copy of the letter sent to the managing agent stating "no further directions given. The claim is presently struck out for non-compliance with the order".

I just got a letter from the DCA stating i have been given 7 days to pay. including in this debt is that which has been struck out.

 

kind regards

[andydd]

Ta. Well that seems quite clear then. Same situation as mine, theyve had their chance in court but blew it, its my opinion that they simply cant try again !

 

This means that the amount cant be recovered in the courts, although they are entitled to ask you for it and try and collect it.

 

Debt collectors have no powers and can be ignored BUT carefully read your lease, some leases allow legal costs such as debt collectors, solicitors, etc to be recovered via the service charges, this can be problematic, perhaps a s20c application to court could prevent this.

 

Have you a copy of your lease ?

 

Andy