Need urgent appeal advice - ** WON **

[wiggles40]

I know Emmzzi, my fault i have always been protective of him due to he's own health issues!!! ......... Just don't understand all the jargon and technicalities and grounds etc! Knew i should of studied law !! lol....

[Emmzzi]

Make him join the union in his next job, that is what they are for!

 

Lbruk's letter is fine - you are not appealing that there should be a sanction.

 

"I feel the outcome may have been harsh, that trust can be recovered, and I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss further, and potentially complete my apprenticeship."

 

But if the daft sod is sulking in his room all the letters you write will not make a blind bit of difference. Have you made him start applying for other jobs yet? Might give him a shake when he sees what is out there for a chap with no qualifications!!!

 

Also has he spoken to the college about options with other employers?

[wiggles40]

Emmzzi

 

Thanks for further help on what to write in the appeal,,,, if after submitting the appeal we find further grounds are we allowed to bring them up at appeal or only what we have stated in original appeal letter??

 

He has been offered a temporary phone sales job from a friend which he is looking into, just to sit for long periods he is unable to do due to he's medical condition, but its an option, i think he is just shocked and un prepared on how to deal with this,

i agree he should have some form of discipline but i do think they have gone a tad harsh and also not consistent with other discipline outcomes as a colleague committed far worse and got a slap on the hand :-/ .....

 

The college he attends is the companies own college, he works at main dealership on apprenticeship and goes to there college every 6 weeks for a week! ..............

[becky2585]

You can't appeal for your son - he needs to do it himself, or the company will just ignore it.

 

He needs to outline why dismissal was unfair in the circumstances - there's no particilar set format. Although I'm sure google would have one somewhere if you don't know where to start!

[wiggles40]

Hi becky

 

Yes im aware i cant do the appeal but i'm just helping him prepare the appeal letter, and in all honesty i'm finding it extremely hard to follow and write, google hasn't been that helpful as i understand we have to write what grounds....Don't no the law on what is classed as grounds.

[Emmzzi]

where "helping him prepare" = writing it for him.

 

Send him onto the forum himself It will be educational for him

[Emmzzi]

sampel letter. your grounds are that while you agree some sanction is appropriate dismissal is harsh especially with 6 months to go until qualifies, has been a good a loyal employee, etc etc.

 

http://www.unitetheunion.org/pdf/SLetter13RequestingAppealUnderDismissalDisiplinaryProcedure.pdf

[wiggles40]

Ok i will admit that ... yes i'm preparing it all for him, hoping being an adult i can help him more than what a smothered son of 20yr old would do....My fault i know....

Just don't want to stress myself out anymore than i am being the condition i'm in health wise, don't feel great today just want to get it prepared and done and for him to take it to the work place and then prepare for the appeal!!

 

Might have to give up my wages this month to get a solicitor to do it, i don't want to jepadise it n anyway!!! just TIRED.COM now!

[wiggles40]

Thank you Emmzzi just sen the link x

[Emmzzi]

there is little point paying for a solicitor. You have no legal grounds at all. You are appealling to their better nature to take pity on a daft laddie.

 

You don't need a solicitor for that, and son will either be able to convince them, or he won't.

 

It really is down to him and you are not going to get anywhere while he is sitting on his backside not trying.

 

So. he writes the letter, and he also takes the sales job while he is waiting for an appeal date, so he has some cash coming in. Go to!

[wiggles40]

Agree with all you have said Emmzzi ! and Thank you.....

[elche]

Hi Wiggles,

 

Sorry to her about your son's dismissal. There are a number of issues in your post that I feel have not yet been properly highlghted.

 

Firstly, let me say, that you are on the back foot to a degree, the subtantive reason for teh dismissal seems plausible (taking the machine - how do we know he was not nicking it, doing a foreigner etc) and the procedural elements seem potentially fair - there was suspension on pay prior to the DH, a recorded DH, thus we have minutes and sounds like some HR who might know wht they were doing chairing the meeting.

 

However, you (well he) should appeal - you may be able to get this down to First and Final Written Warning if what you say about them liking him and his work ethic is true. You just to have to give them a reason to differentiate your treatment from anyone who has been dismissed before for this.

 

Thus first point - consistency - has this ever happened before, and if so what happened? Can you distinguish your facts from any prior similar incidents that resulted in dismissal?

 

Apprentice status - this is a unique category of employee and can trip up HR with it's potentially special rules. Get a copy of the apprenticeship agreement - was there also a contract of employment? - check both these documents for the contractual right(s) to (a) terminate the apprenticeship and (b) dismiss the employee under the contract of employment

 

Employee handbook - has the person who chaired the meeting got the contractual right to dismiss - this shoudl be in the disciplinary rules section.

 

If you can answer this we can take it from there.

 

Oh..... and also, did the dismissal letter give time limit for the appeal and have they transcribed any minutes as yet?

 

Che

Edited November 6, 2012 by elche

[wiggles40]

Hello Elche and thank you for your response....

 

I will answer what i DO noand what i don't i will certainly confirm tomorrow

 

During the DH it was said by the Manager holding the disciplinary that one of the allegation was "theft"/Borrowing ... wheres this was written in the letter as dishonesty/theft....... so surely it has to be one or the other Theft or borrowing?? He had already informed them that he had borrowed the machine before which was confirmed as brought back....

 

He is very well liked and respected within the branch by other managers including the manager that held the DH, colleagues have informed my son that they are more than happy to give any character reference for the appeal and that that have no trust issues if to work with him again!

 

With regards to consistency, we are still trying to get this confirmed, as the ones we have approached have confirmed that it was more a case of brushed under the carpet..... We are just waiting for a further 2 who were disciplined for very similar and still working within the company! A manager informed my son today that there discipline record is inconsistent and they have been known to cut corners..... But its proving this that is the challenge!

 

He's contract is in he's locker at work and will be collected tomorrow so can confirm more on this then......

 

Yes the DH was held by the business manager who has the right to dismiss as he is the one that usually does this, my son does not have a handbook.......

 

And the letter from the DH has not arrived through the post yet but they informed my son he has 7 days to appeal....

 

Although this is not part of the disciplinary we are aware for sure that they don't follow correct procedures especially on H&S where my son has been involved and they did not carry the correct procedure! I advised my son at the time to report this but he was showing loyalty to the company by not doing so! This even resulted him in having an operation and alot of time ( unpaid) at work...........

 

A worker also told my son today that yesterday at a certain time theft took part and to ask them to look at the CCTV at 6pm, but again we can't do this, so all in all alot goes on within the company that blind eyes seems to be turned.....

 

I will confirm contract tomorrow and again many thanks for your help

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Elche and thank you for your response.....

I will try my best to answer what i can but i know there's some parts that cannot be answered till tomorrow!

 

During the DH they stated to my son that they don't believe he was going to steal it, and that it wasnt theft "Borrowing"...he had alrea

[wiggles40]

Woohooo... Brainstorm from my son...contract at home tucked nicely under the bed with a few tea cup stains!!! Kids!!!

 

Ok the heading is STATEMENT OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS... This document constitutes part of your contract of employment and incorporates a statement of the applicable terms and conditions in accordance with the employment rights act 1996

 

Then theres another part which says.... CONDITIONS OF AGREEMENT OF APPRENTICESHIP

 

He's job description is Apprentice Technician

 

ok in the APPRENTICESHIP AGREEMENT it states ....... in respect of the effects of legislation governing unfair dismissal or dismissal in breach of contract of employment or the terms of this agreement,the following may be valid reasons for the termination of the agreement at any other time...... and Letter D) is: Persistent misconduct or acts of gross misconduct or under-performance by the apprentice are advised in writing from time to time to the apprentice and ( where applicable) to the parent/guardian.You are reminded that these conditions form part of your contractual terms within the company.It is therefore your responsibility to familiarise yourself with this document and raise any queries you may have with your immediate line manager

 

In the STATEMENT OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS it states the company reserves the right to terminate employment immediately without notice or payment for disciplinary reasons.....

 

With regards to the handbook my son states to me he never received a handbook and a few months ago he did ask in the workshop for one as wanted to look up something and was told don't know where it is...

 

Hope this is the correct info required if not please ask away!

[elche]

With regards to consistency, we are still trying to get this confirmed, as the ones we have approached have confirmed that it was more a case of brushed under the carpet..... We are just waiting for a further 2 who were disciplined for very similar and still working within the company! A manager informed my son today that there discipline record is inconsistent and they have been known to cut corners..... But its proving this that is the challenge!

 

He doesn't necessarily have to prove this, they can investigate, if he raises this issue in any appeal letter.

 

And the letter from the DH has not arrived through the post yet but they informed my son he has 7 days to appeal....

 

Really this should be 7 days from receipt if they are being fair about this, so you should have a few days to draft the letter.

 

Although this is not part of the disciplinary we are aware for sure that they don't follow correct procedures especially on H&S where my son has been involved and they did not carry the correct procedure! I advised my son at the time to report this but he was showing loyalty to the company by not doing so! This even resulted him in having an operation and alot of time ( unpaid) at work..........

.

Forget this unless you can prove you raised this (ideally in writing), before the decision to dismiss was made.

 

A worker also told my son today that yesterday at a certain time theft took part and to ask them to look at the CCTV at 6pm, but again we can't do this, so all in all alot goes on within the company that blind eyes seems to be turned.....

 

Not sure what relevance this is? Could you expand?

[wiggles40]

I have done a reply after about the contract that we found at home.....

[wiggles40]

Apparently a theft took place yesterday right under the managers nose who would of seen it and a blind eye was turned, so setting an example of my son by dismissing him obviously hasn't worked...... My opinion is the owner of the company who is at another branch does not really know what goes on within this branch, as long as figures and targets are met then that is all that applies....... But it going to sound tit for tat if we raise this and my son has said he is not prepared to risk anyone else loosing their job, which i can understand in a sense but doesn't support him very well!........

[Emmzzi]

So you were there and know all about this, do you?

 

Believe me, stirring will not help one bit.

[wiggles40]

No we weren't there and i made that clear by saying my son received a call and i said being tit for tat is not going to help, i was stating that clearly if this allegation is true then an example of my son is not working...... I believe you have to have firm evidence to present , accusations are worthless and gets into a whole different ball game!!!

[elche]

 

Although this is not part of the disciplinary we are aware for sure that they don't follow correct procedures especially on H&S where my son has been involved and they did not carry the correct procedure! I advised my son at the time to report this but he was showing loyalty to the company by not doing so! This even resulted him in having an operation and alot of time ( unpaid) at work...........

 

Sorry, upon re-reading this I am not clear...are you saying he had an accident at work, what do you mean by, "..an operation.."?

 

Che

[wiggles40]

Morning elche,

 

He caught he's finger on an engine part whilst working on a vehicle at work whilst the engine was on, this resulted on the top of he's finger neally being fully ripped off , he was bleeding very heavily, they had no first aider on site and just stuck him in an office staff car who dropped him off at the hospital, there they done what was necessary and he was booked in for plastic surgery operation which took place 3 days later..... This then resulted in him having time off after, I asked my son as it wasn't known at the time by the hospital if there would be any permanent damage if an accident book was filled out, he said NO it was never mentioned since! Now this is not proper company H&S procedure, and i understand if a work employee if off work for more than 3 days due to an accident at work the local authority should be informed! I kepted pressing my son to report this to the company for not recording it but he's loyalty didn't do this!

 

I wrote a few posts up the content of contracts he's has.....

[wiggles40]

Me again!

Right we have received the DH letter through the post ( not recorded delivery mind you) in the letter it states 5 days to appeal from receipt of letter ( now how would they no when we receive the letter if not recorded) but at the end of the interview on the cd he was told 7 days.... which One do we go by???

[Nagasis]

Me again!

Right we have received the DH letter through the post ( not recorded delivery mind you) in the letter it states 5 days to appeal from receipt of letter ( now how would they no when we receive the letter if not recorded) but at the end of the interview on the cd he was told 7 days.... which One do we go by???

 

Are they not both the same date?

He had 7 days to appeal from the 5th which makes it the 12th to appeal by.

or

5 days from today, which again is the 12th?

[wiggles40]

Thank you Nagasis......

 

Right i can't do snippets from the DH letter so i'm going to write out the whole later.......

 

 

 

"Dear xxxxxxxxxx

 

I am writing to you to record the outcome of the disciplinary hearing held on the 5th of november 2012 in respect of your attempt to remove a portable diagnostic machine from the business premisses on the 27th october 2012 with out permission.

 

confirmation of the facts as follows.

 

1. You stated at around 2pm on the 27th october 2012 you were contacted by your father who said he has a problem with his vehicle which you stated is a Vauxhall Astra.

2. You stated you took the portable machine, which has a value a of £7000 with the intention to take home and diagnose the fault of the vehicle.

3. You did not seek permission to bring the vehicle on to the premises to see if the business could help you to rectify the problem.

4. When the workshop controller realised the machine was missing further investigations where made. you was asked if you had the machine in your bag which you fully admitted.

5. you asked the workshop controller not to involve the service manager about this incident and if it could be kept between your selves.

6. you did not seek permission to take this property from the service manager or workshop controller who where on site at the time. when asked why you didn't seek permission to take the property you responded you knew the answer would be no.

 

after a full investigation into the factor of this guess and following admittance from this incident within accordance with the companies disciplinary procedure, i can confirm this incident constitutes gross mis conduct. following careful consideration involving all the individual circumstances i confirm the decision has been taken summarily dismiss you and as a result of your contract of employment will be terminated from the 5th november 2012.

 

We deem that it is reasonable and probable and you contravened company policy throughout the following misdemeanours.

 

1. Dishonesty /Theft ( removal of company property with out permission.)

2. breach of implied trust and confidence between you and the company.

3. engaging directly or indirectly in any business or employment which is similar to or in anyway prejudicial or detrimental to the company.

 

this is a serious and significant breech of trust and confidence in you . in view of all these factors we believe there is no alternative on the companies part but to terminate your employment."

 

The letter goes on about pay and appeal etc....... Now i do have some concerns and questions i need to raise but i am now going to listen to the Recorded interview and will raise the questions bit later if someone could please help us, as we need to get the appeal off tomorrow as it has to go to another branch as i want to make sure it gets theres i'm driving it tomorrow as working friday...

 

Many Thanks in advance

Edited November 7, 2012 by wiggles40

[wiggles40]

Ok...following on from writing the DH letter out on above thread i have now listened to the recording of interview and outcome.......

 

I'm very annoyed at my son for not fighting he's corner and didn't really help himself by staying mute throughout apart from saying yes or no, hence DH lasted all of a whopping 4 MINUTES!!!!

I know he is not a an outspoken person and very quite and shy..... so this concerns me

 

The man holding the DH states that its ...

 

DISHONESTY/THEFT INVERTIVE BORROWING AS SIMILAR SORT OF THING........ Well its not in my book, its 2 different things and also in the eye of the law it is???????

 

Suspicion of PRIVATE WORK.....well its unpaid and helping he's dad so he was not taken any business away from the company

 

He next quoted about another work colleague by saying! Llyod was suspended over private work ( Caught stamping service books).......................... BUT he never got dismissed tho, still working for the company, surely that offence would imply brach of trust and confidence and dishonesty/theft???????

 

That are my concerns i want to raise to during interview.....

 

OUTCOME OF INTERVIEW CONCERNS

 

The man holding the interview said to my son.... in the future do not get led astray by work colleagues........... So they believe he was influenced by he's actions then???????

 

They have to set a precedent to show to do this isn't fine........ But you stated someone else has done similar and got away?????????

 

Also i would like to ask/say

 

Theft is when something is removed permanently from a place, this never happened and was never the intention or proven it has happened so can we challenge the guilty charge by them???

 

Vauxhall Astra is of no interest to the company and the chance a 2000 plate would betaken to this company of own accord for repair is minimal????

 

Also, on 2nd year apprenticeship they are under no obligation but advised to start purchasing there own tools for the workshop instead of borrowing and using others as they become more independent on working alone! so my son ordered the relevant tools advised and due to the cost this was put on finance, Now not only is he's future messed up, yes himself to partially blame!, but now he will default payments and have a judgement and debt hanging over he's head!!.......

 

It may come across as i'm defending my son, and yes maybe i am in a way, but without going into my life, my son was born a very poorly baby and spent 4 years near on hospitalised, neally lost him on 3 occasions, i have been very protective of him and he was very isolated from social life/skill, half deaf to hence he doesn't speak out and stick up for himself enough,he struggles everyday with he's orthopaedic disability..... He is a good boy with a heart of gold and when i look at how some kids are unfortunately are i'm just grateful he is not in a gang, doesn't smoke or drink and thinks of everyone first, yes i do believe he should be disciplined but, not to this extent......Just wanted to state this as i protect him for a reason but certainly don't deny where punishment is needed.