Not a Criminal Offence ?

[dx100uk]

I think the statement of account on a cca. Request need only be on x date you owe x amount. Also remember that they can become compliant at ANY time. So if they have not replied and then take action they could turn up at court with a compliant cca request. This is where cputr request comes in handy. The moral is never ever ignore a summons or letter before action.

 

very true

 

be VERY careful.

 

only a fool would stand infont of a judge and effectively say ' this is not my debt' m'laud

 

owners of a debt, have many times succeeded , with a recon, statements and a clear financial link.

 

dx

[jackospades]

very true

 

be VERY careful.

 

only a fool would stand infont of a judge and effectively say ' this is not my debt' m'laud

 

owners of a debt, have many times succeeded , with a recon, statements and a clear financial link.

 

dx

 

someone else not sleeping..

I started out with what I thought was a legit request for the DCA to prove they own the debt.

 

I have never had any asssignent or welcome letters and just glibly assumed all was legit with them.

 

If they do have legit rights and duties to it, fair do's. I'll seek a settlement if I can, maybe.

If they do not have the rights and duties...then, well I'll be back for advice.

 

Having got 'into' it and read the new OFT guidlines and many many other boards

I can see many have trodden the path before and there is a trend for 'loopholes' in the legislation to be shut now..

 

I am not looking for a loophole though, just want to know if the DCA has a 100% legit claim against me, as most people would.

 

I rely totally on the advice of others and my interpretations of what I read from others experiences and advice, including, of course, yours.

 

I have no intentions of pursuing anything that has risk attached to it and if I thought the DCA would ever reply to any of my letters (they never have so far)

I would have just written them and not gone in with guns blazing and a CCA request.

 

In fact my first letter was not a CCA but an enquiry with a few mentions of possible further CCA follow up, but they never replied , as yet anyway.

 

tentatively forward I go, but the comment above put the frighteners on me a bit if they can just not reply to my CCA request and go straight to Court and demand a CCJ ..

..I would be stood in front of Judge saying..

.I only wanted to know if they were legit or not your Honour.

...I haven't said I will not pay, just suspended payment pending their reply,

but will pay arrears if they come up with the gubbins...

Edited September 3, 2012 by dx100uk
Added lines breaks - dx

[dx100uk]

tell us about the debt .

theres no real 'worthiness' in looking for ways to 'avoid' the debt.

 

there are many differing ways to go on the attack.

 

looking for a 'wriggle on rules & paperwork' is not the way.

 

tell us the story

 

dx

 

dx

[drop47]

Jack,i didn't mean to worry you. All i was trying to explain was that if a cca request is not complied with in the 14 days all that means is that the debt is unenforceable UNTIL they comply. Same as if it does not contain the prescribed terms,that can be fixed. However if the agreement is flawed for example the wrong interest rate or wrong total charge for credit,or you can prove you did not receive the original terms then that is different. You are i suspect correct when you say a judge would frown upon a creditor not producing a cca until court but i am no lawyer.

[jackospades]

tell us about the debt .

theres no real 'worthiness' in looking for ways to 'avoid' the debt.

 

there are many differing ways to go on the attack.

 

looking for a 'wriggle on rules & paperwork' is not the way.

 

tell us the story

 

dx

 

dx

 

Hmm, hadn't seen asking for legitimacy of their claim as 'wriggling' away from debt...is that your perspective on this ?

[jackospades]

Jack,i didn't mean to worry you. All i was trying to explain was that if a cca request is not complied with in the 14 days all that means is that the debt is unenforceable UNTIL they comply. Same as if it does not contain the prescribed terms,that can be fixed. However if the agreement is flawed for example the wrong interest rate or wrong total charge for credit,or you can prove you did not receive the original terms then that is different. You are i suspect correct when you say a judge would frown upon a creditor not producing a cca until court but i am no lawyer.

 

All I received was a sheet of A4 with the new card affixed, which said on it (but not the heading) Credit Agreement regulated by the CCA Act 1974. and listed Limits, Credit Charges, repayments etc etc...it didn't have any signatures on it, or a date, although it said my card was valid from Jan 2003.

[jackospades]

I have most of my credit card statements from Jan 2003 until the default in June 2008, apart from the 1st year and an odd few between. Can I get sainsbury's to send these to me, how would I go about this ?

 

One thing I have noted is that the 'Credit Agreement' they sent me (unsigned) stated Interest at 1.167% pm, 14.9% APR but when they started to write to me in August & Sept 2006 about being over my limit etc, they changed the interest to a daily rate and not a monthly rate, although the APR remained the same. I've only just discover this while trying to check interest charges. Am not sure why they did this, they didn't tell me (and I have all the letters from this period) and I certainly didn't receive a new Agreement. This is the same period they started charging me Late Fees even though I did pay the agreed amount on time.I think their definition of a Late Fee is if you haven't paid the amount shown on the previous statement, not that it was paid late (confused?).

 

Anyway, today the DCA gets their CCA letter as they haven't replied to my 17th August letter.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Yes the exact minimum payment or a larger amount must reach the account on or BEFORE the due date shown on the statement, so payments by post need to be sent 7 days prior to the due date, debit card payment 5 days prior to the due date, through your own banks services 5 days prior to due date, on line 5 days,

any payments made after those times will often no reach your account on the DUE DATE and the system automatically places a late payment marker even if the payments is in the creditors possesion.

[jackospades]

Yes the exact minimum payment or a larger amount must reach the account on or BEFORE the due date shown on the statement, so payments by post need to be sent 7 days prior to the due date, debit card payment 5 days prior to the due date, through your own banks services 5 days prior to due date, on line 5 days,

any payments made after those times will often no reach your account on the DUE DATE and the system automatically places a late payment marker even if the payments is in the creditors possesion.

 

I think the problem here was that while they wrote to me and agreed a reduced payment, they did not place it on the computer, so the Fees were charged automatically. They were certainly paid on time.

[drop47]

You should have received terms and conditions at the time you received the card. How did you apply for it? Also have you ever received a default notice and if so do you still have it?

[dx100uk]

I have most of my credit card statements from Jan 2003 until the default in June 2008, apart from the 1st year and an odd few between. Can I get sainsbury's to send these to me, how would I go about this ?

 

One thing I have noted is that the 'Credit Agreement' they sent me (unsigned) stated Interest at 1.167% pm, 14.9% APR but when they started to write to me in August & Sept 2006 about being over my limit etc, they changed the interest to a daily rate and not a monthly rate, although the APR remained the same. I've only just discover this while trying to check interest charges. Am not sure why they did this, they didn't tell me (and I have all the letters from this period) and I certainly didn't receive a new Agreement. This is the same period they started charging me Late Fees even though I did pay the agreed amount on time.I think their definition of a Late Fee is if you haven't paid the amount shown on the previous statement, not that it was paid late (confused?).

 

Anyway, today the DCA gets their CCA letter as they haven't replied to my 17th August letter.

 

so its a sainsbury's credit card?

 

was it a storecard that changed in to a credit card par chance....

 

dx

[jackospades]

You should have received terms and conditions at the time you received the card. How did you apply for it? Also have you ever received a default notice and if so do you still have it?

 

As far as I can recall back in December 2002 I telephoned a number they had advertised and they sent me an application form where I filled in mydetails and probably signed and dated it. This is Sainsbury's Bank. I might though have picked up an application form in one of the Sainsbury's shops, I can't really remember, but I didn't do it in a bank or anything for sure. In january 2003 and card arrived affixed to the aforementioned A4 card. Nothing else was in that envelope, I can remember that, just the card, I always save stuff like this so a signed copy of an agreement with T&C I would have put in my file with the other stuff. Another Letter followed which had my PIN number , and that came by itself too.

 

I received a letter which was dated 15th May 2008 which was a default Notice from Sainsbury's Bank, it said if I didn't pay in £xxxx.xx before 29th May 2008 they would terminate our agreement, take legal proceedings against me/instruct a DCA to recover the money. It went on to say if I haven't paid the amount requested within 28 days of the letter, or made proposals to do so, they would send info to a CRA.. I still have the default notice (I keep most things). I never heard from sainsbury's bank again.

 

I did no have a store card at sainsbury's.

[drop47]

Well imho the agreement is totally unenforceable for two reasons at least but please check on this. No prescribed terms at time of issue nor on the cca request and the default notice is faultyin that it does not give you 14 clear days from service to remedy the breach. I would tell them to go to hell and pay it as and when you see fit.

[jackospades]

Well imho the agreement is totally unenforceable for two reasons at least but please check on this. No prescribed terms at time of issue nor on the cca request and the default notice is faultyin that it does not give you 14 clear days from service to remedy the breach. I would tell them to go to hell and pay it as and when you see fit.

 

Thank you for your comments 47..It is certainly clear in the default notice "You must pay before the 29th May (letter dated 15th May) ...or We will terminate our agreement with you and close your credit card account number xxxxxxxxxxxxx " What I don't understand (yet) is the significance of a faulty defect notice. As for the prescribed terms, doesn't the carey case apply ...ie the DCA can provide a reconstitued Agreement with T&C, etc or does this 2003 contract fall outside that judgement ? I will research anyway, but an informed opinion would be warmly welcomed.

[drop47]

Hi i really can not give opinion as all i know is what i have read. I don't want to confuse myself but there is more to being able to enforce an agreement than just a compliant cca request. So yes a recon can be supplied for a cca request but there are other aspects of the act that could come into play. But i can't explain it. Sorry

[jackospades]

No worries, I'm sure one of the experts will be along soon and enlighten us both..

[dx100uk]

Thank you for your comments 47..It is certainly clear in the default notice "You must pay before the 29th May (letter dated 15th May) ...or We will terminate our agreement with you and close your credit card account number xxxxxxxxxxxxx " What I don't understand (yet) is the significance of a faulty defect notice. As for the prescribed terms, doesn't the carey case apply ...ie the DCA can provide a reconstitued Agreement with T&C, etc or does this 2003 contract fall outside that judgement ? I will research anyway, but an informed opinion would be warmly welcomed.

 

a defecive DN effectively means they should not have marked your cra or taken any of the actions listed upon it.

however, its just as simple to issue a new 'correct ' one.

 

anyway.

 

as already stated trying to wriggle out of debt by a 'paperwork' error is not what cag is about.

 

how much is outstanding and how many of these PENALTY fees and PPI? have you got?

 

for a card of this age the PPI/charges will be worth £1000's

 

dx

[drop47]

As dx says this is not what cag is about. But my understanding is that while a cca request may be complied with by providing a recon in order to enforce they really need to provide a properly executed agreement in court. However telling the difference between a recon and the real thing can be difficult. So maybe looking at ppi. Reclaim is a great way to start

[jackospades]

#27 "I am not looking for a loophole though, just want to know if the DCA has a 100% legit claim against me, as most people would."

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

A default notice is a relatively simple document '' you have missed xxx payments and are £xxxx in arrears unless you pay £xxxx within 14 days of the date of this notice and so on.

 

Agreements prior to April 2007 must have an original signed and properly executed agreement to be enorceable in court.

 

The DN you quote sound OK to me.

 

Often the terms and conditions on credit card agreement are contained in a separate booklet provided with the card.

[drop47]

I think it would be silly not to verify the validity of a claim against you. As for the default notice,never tell them that it is faulty, that would be something you brought up in court if it every got that far. To be honest i would not tell them how the cca request was incorrect just that it was. It puts the power back in the consumers hands and will help you dictate how you repay the debt.

[drop47]

With respect Brig it's 14 days from date of service, this DN only gives 14 days. 15th May was a Thursday so i believe it would be deemed to have been served on Monday 19th or at very worst sat 17th so no 14 days

A default notice is a relatively simple document '' you have missed xxx payments and are £xxxx in arrears unless you pay £xxxx within 14 days of the date of this notice and so on.

 

Agreements prior to April 2007 must have an original signed and properly executed agreement to be enorceable in court.

 

The DN you quote sound OK to me.

 

Often the terms and conditions on credit card agreement are contained in a separate booklet provided with the card.

[jackospades]

I think it would be silly not to verify the validity of a claim against you. As for the default notice,never tell them that it is faulty, that would be something you brought up in court if it every got that far. To be honest i would not tell them how the cca request was incorrect just that it was. It puts the power back in the consumers hands and will help you dictate how you repay the debt.

 

I agree, as in all things it is usually best to check...even having a car serviced you'd check the oil etc was changed after...wouldn't you .?... I don't think that is wangling to get get out of paying the garage...Also agree, in the case of potential problems, you need an 'ace' up your sleeve

[jackospades]

A default notice is a relatively simple document '' you have missed xxx payments and are £xxxx in arrears unless you pay £xxxx within 14 days of the date of this notice and so on.

 

Agreements prior to April 2007 must have an original signed and properly executed agreement to be enorceable in court.

 

The DN you quote sound OK to me.

 

Often the terms and conditions on credit card agreement are contained in a separate booklet provided with the card.

 

Not really, DN is defective as no time was allowed for postage 1st or 2nd class. Also, the amount claimed does not tie up with what was on the Statement at the time either and neither was there the OFT statement attached to the DN. The CCA request will highlight no T and C, no signed contract or agreement too. , neither was there ever an assignment notice. In effect then the termination has not happened and it is still a 'live' contract without a breach...although this is all nonsense as they have sold it off anyway and a DCA is alledging ownership...interestingly the CRA Default is under the name of the DCA not the OC... but these are all technicalities I know and not to be used for personal gain.

[Bandit127]

A default notice is only useful as long as there are moneys overdue under the time scale of the original contract. For a loan of (e.g.) 60 months, if a creditor is chasing the total outstanding at 61 months there is no need for a default notice.

 

Therefore claiming a copy of the default notice under CPR 31.14 and pointing out a deficiency in it if a fixed term loan has expired would be folly and potentially embarrassing.