One months notice to leave

[MrBlack]

Hi,

 

My tenancy is up in one month, end of Sept. I had an email this morning from my landlord stating they have decided to sell the property.

It wasn't a 'formal' notice for me to leave, in the sense of the wording. They were thoughtful to an extent and told me that if I needed longer, let them know so they can arrange a weekly payment of rent rather than monthly etc.

 

But, from reading the posts on this forum, am I right in thinking that I can't be legally forced out unless they hand me the S21 document ?

 

Just to stress - I am in now way intending to be awkward at all to my landlord - I just want to know if I do have that extra little bit of time if needed (if I was on my own it would be a cinch to move, but I have a dog and ideally want to move into a househare, and finding one that accomodates pets is a lot trickier)

[Lea_HTH]

If the LL requires possession of the property, he/she has to serve you with the appropriate notice. If there has been no other breach of tenancy, then a s21 will be the appropriate notice to serve.

 

Are you certain that you did not sign a s21 notice after you signed the tenancy agreement - prior to the change in law in April for the protection of deposits, it was quite common for a LL to ask a tenant to sign a s21 notice as well, just to save time for themselves in future. If you did, then that notice will be valid.

 

Otherwise, if your LL did not do that, then you are absolutely correct and he/she will need to serve you with valid notice prior to expecting you to move out. Please be aware, however, that should your LL need to take you to court to evict you, those costs may be passed on to you - check your tenancy agreement to see whether there is a clause relating to legal costs. In any event, fixed costs are likely to be awarded against you if the LL has to take you to court, and if the s21 notice has been validly served.

[MrBlack]

Thank you for your reply.

 

No I did not sign an S21 addendum.

 

Okay, well now I know I have at least two months then, as I have not been served an S21.

 

Again, I am happy to move on - I don't have an issue with that - but I got a bit stressed by the way in which my landlord chose to tell me they wanted to sell and the way the email I received of them was worded - implying I had to go in 4 weeks as soon as the tenancy agreement expired.

[MrBlack]

Additional - I just noticed that an S21 cannot be served until the end of the fixed term? So if I informed my landlord of my knowledge regarding this, and I cannot be forced out on the day my tenancy ends (Sept 28th) they cannot issue me with an S21 before that date which is valid from the date I receive it? It would only be valid from 29th Sept?

[mariner51]

"I just noticed that an S21 cannot be served until the end of the fixed term?"

Valid s21b can be issued at any time during fixed term after deposit protected etc. but it cannot expire & LL cannot seek Court Order until after fixed term has ended. Subtle diff.

[MrBlack]

Ah okay. Well I havent had the S21 anyway (I understand it has to be handed in person to me or posted to me) so I have at least one months more house hunting time instead of being under pressure to leave the very next day after my tenancy expires.

[45002]

Ah okay. Well I haven't had the S21 anyway (I understand it has to be handed in person to me or posted to me) so I have at least one months more house hunting time instead of being under pressure to leave the very next day after my tenancy expires.

 

You will have a lot longer than that to find some where else to live,you dont have to leave until bailiffs enforce a warrant for possession.

 

The tenancy does not End until bailiffs remove a Tenant from the LL property.

Edited September 1, 2012 by 45002

[Lea_HTH]

The tenancy does not End until bailiffs remove a Tenant from the LL property.

 

Just a slight amendment to the above - the tenancy ends when the possession order is granted (on the date of the order), thereafter there is no tenancy. However, the rest is absolutely true, the occupier does not need to leave until the date and time listed on the notice of eviction - they can stay until the bailiffs arrive if they wish, or even make a stay application if there's time left (i.e. within 42 days from date of order).

[raydetinu]

did you pay a deposit and is it protected? S21 notice not valid until it is, also you can sue LL for not protecting it.

If you want longer dont tell them they need to issue S21, why advise of it!

[mariner51]

"the tenancy ends when the possession order is granted (on the date of the order), thereafter there is no tenancy."

 

Lea_HTH, can you cite legal precedent/statute for this?

 

Repo hearing is held 1st Oct, Judge grants order and allows extra 14 days to 15 Oct. Bailiffs engaged for 1 Nov, T applies for and is granted a 3 week stay to ~21 Nov, Bailiffs re-booked for 28 Nov, IT departs day before Bailiffs due to arrive for 2nd engagement, or is evicted by Bailiff on 28 Nov.

 

So when does T end, along with T resp for property & rent? 1 Oct, 15 Oct, 21 Nov, 27 Nov or 28 Nov?

[45002]

"the tenancy ends when the possession order is granted (on the date of the order), thereafter there is no tenancy."

 

Lea_HTH, can you cite legal precedent/statute for this?

 

Repo hearing is held 1st Oct, Judge grants order and allows extra 14 days to 15 Oct. Bailiffs engaged for 1 Nov, T applies for and is granted a 3 week stay to ~21 Nov, Bailiffs re-booked for 28 Nov, IT departs day before Bailiffs due to arrive for 2nd engagement, or is evicted by Bailiff on 28 Nov.

 

So when does T end, along with T resp for property & rent? 1 Oct, 15 Oct, 21 Nov, 27 Nov or 28 Nov?

 

I too would be interested in this as well.

 

Thank you in Advance

[AA99]

Subbing for an answer to Mariner's question too

[Lea_HTH]

I suspect you already know the 'letter of the law', however the application of it is according to a judge's interpretation. HA1988 and HRA 2008.

 

Once a possession order is granted, the end date (the date on which the tenant is told to give up the property) is the date that determines the tenancy agreement. Once the tenancy agreement is determined, there is no tenancy. The tenant thus becomes an occupier.

 

I don't know how many, if any, of you have regularly attended possession proceedings, but if you have, you will have noticed that four things generally happen when possession is granted. 1. Possession is granted for a fixed date in the future, usually 14 days. 2) A money judgment, if there are outstanding rental payments, usually with the same date payable as the possession, but often 28 days instead (MJs if s21 brought to court under non-accelerated proceedings only). 3) Mesne profits (often referred to as use and occupation) which will apply either from the date of the hearing, the day after the hearing, the day after the possession order date, or on the next rental period IF the rent has already been paid for a specified period. Mesne profits are payable because to accept 'rent' may imply a new tenancy. Ergo, there is NO tenancy at that point. 4) Costs.

 

So, the end of the tenancy is brought about by the possession order and the tenant immediately becomes an occupier on that order's date, liable to use and occupation charges and not rent. His/her obligations to the landlord remain the same in the sense that they cannot suddenly trash the property and claim their deposit back because they are not 'tenants' - the obligations to look after the property under use and occupation remain the same.

 

If any of you haven't observed any possession hearings, you may find it useful to go to your local county court that holds such hearings and ask permission from the judge to sit in on a few cases. Very worthwhile if you're going to give people advice to actually have seen proceedings in action and listened to judges' reasonings for the orders they make.

[MrBlack]

Well the upshot of it is - I have been lucky and have found a houseshare just up the road which I will be moving into at the end of September, so I dont have to tell my landlady that she hasnt given me an S21 blah blah blah. I'm just too accomodating at times I guess.

 

Though it does niggle me that not only does she give me one months notice, but she wants to bring potential buyers to view the property every single weekend until I leave! I said yes to tomorrow, but said no to her coming again Sunday with other people to look around. In fairness, she accepted that.

 

But you know, it does bother me because she is in such a rush and doesnt appreciate the fact I am being so good with her and could have made her wait at least another two months if I really wanted to....

[45002]

Glad to here you found some where else Mr Black.

 

Good luck....