DVLA head ache case: late licensing Penalty issued while being resident abroad with car due to be permanently exported

[Raykay]

One of the few times I don't see how it is mistake by DVLA, all they needed was the date of export - the date the car was taken out of Great Britain, you left it for six months and the licence expired during that time, which caused the problems.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Raykay

[trandbert]

The point I'm making is:

• If it was just more explained on V5C/4 or section 11, I would not be here talking about it.
  
• DVLA V5C/4 and section 11 are very slim and both fail to explain to the private motorist, who need more pedagogy than professional exporters, what is the definition of the date of permanent export of your vehicle and when to send your notice of permanent export.
  
• DVLA web site is rather vague about the permanent export date, it is just mentionning
  
  • When a vehicle registered in the United Kingdom (UK) is taken out of the country for 12 months or more, it’s regarded as being permanently exported from the UK.
    
  • it does not stipulate: the date you have to claim the permanent export and send the V5C/4 is the the first day abroad of the 12 months (continuous period), or if is the last day of the 12th months (continuous period), so no definition of the date of permanent export, one could undestand it as:
    
    • you can choose whatever day in the 12 months period to send the V5C/4.
      

    [*]No mentionning of the penalty you may face by not renewing the SORN in the 12 months period abroad, while it is rather a specific process

    [*]What would happen if your UK registred vehicle was staying every years 11 months abroad, and coming back one month every year in the UK, would it be a permanent export or not?

    [*]everything remain extremely fuzzy, for the consumer to remain confused about the true permanent export date to claim on V5C/4

My undestanding of the law, I might be wrong, is that the legal date for the permanent export has nothing to to do with the one claimed of the V5C/4:

• Someone can make a false claim, and you have to be able to challenge it against the legal date for a permanent export for non commercial good, which I suppose apply to any goods.
  
• A GB registred vehicle could be permanently exported (staying more then 12 months abroad), from the legal point of view, but the owner with a GB address, would decide not to send the V5C/4 but rather prefer to renew SORN from abroad to avoid speed fine in the abroad country for years, looking alike a GB tourist driving abroad on GT ground.
  

If I've understood you correctly, and you have been impressive about UK laws, the date for the permanent export for non commercial goods, would be once your vehicle arrive on the other side of the channel for the driver to live abroad, in line with what I claimed on my P85 sent to HR Revenue & customs before leaving the UK.

 

Once the permanent export has already been materialised according to UK laws by non UK resident, regardless of the DVLA notification V5C/4 sent or not, it does not make sense to apply the same enforcement process as a failure to renew SORN for GB resident.

Trying the same enforcement based on DVLA data base with GB addresses only, just derail, with letters automaticaly sent to GB post code, with Bailiff annoying occupiers, and just making life harder for Royal Mail, when DVLA enforcement team try to aggregate a random GB post code with an address abroad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now what would be interesting to find is:

• the true legal definition of the date of permanent export for any non commercial goods which applies in the UK (and in France) for any goods
  
• as it is difficult to believe this is the date claimed on DVLA V5C/4, as you just need another definition for GB resident not sending the V5C/4 while their vehicle are staying more than 12 months abroad while carrying on renewing their SORN from abroad.
  

At the contrary, if the legal definition for the date of permanent export for a vehicle in the UK, was really the date claimed on DVLA V5C/4, then as long you would pay you SORN, and keep a GB address, it could never be challenged under UK laws, but only under laws abroad.

Edited August 11, 2012 by trandbert

[Raykay]

The point I'm making is, DVLA V5C/4 and section 11 are very slim and both fail to explain to the private motorist, who need more pedagogy than professional exporters, what is the definition of the date of permanent export of your vehicle and when to send your notice of permanent export.

 

When a vehicle registered in the United Kingdom (UK) is taken out of the country for 12 months or more, it’s regarded as being permanently exported from the UK.

 

It is regarded as a permanent export, which means it is treated the same as a permanent export, which means the regulations covering a permanent export - as in your case - must be followed, and the date of the permanent export is the date the vehicle left Great Britain.

 

In accordance with section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, the notification of the export should be 'immediate'.

 

You may not understand the legal requirements, but unfortunately, ignorance of the law is no defence. A few enquires or internet searches may have given you the answers to the exporting procedure and saved you the problems.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Raykay

[trandbert]

It is regarded as a permanent export, which means it is treated the same as a permanent export, which means the regulations covering a permanent export - as in your case - must be followed, and the date of the permanent export is the date the vehicle left Great Britain.

 

In accordance with section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, the notification of the export should be 'immediate'.

 

When you are moving country with a family of 4, you don't have much time left to browse over the internet.

 

Well done with you brilliant searches!

but you acknowledge you have to dig arround over the internet to find the permanent export dates and notifications for a vehicle, and that this key information is not explained to consumers on DVLA web site.

 

 

 

 

Adding the additional clarifications below would not do any harm to the permanent export section of DVLA web site :

1. the date to take into consideration for the permanent export is: the date the vehicle leaves the UK (and not the date it is registred with foreign number plates)
   
2. V5C/4 has to be sent to DVLA before the day the vehicle is leaving the UK at the latest - section 17, The Road Vehicle (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002
   
3. Once the date of export submitted to DVLA on V5C/4 has passed, the vehicle is no longer allowed on UK public roads until it is registred with foreign number plates obtained with the concerned authority abroad (and ideally give a list here for most common export destinations). [not really sure about 3, but the implication of notifying DVLA a permanent export should be explained with respect of UK public road, and see if it affects the freedom of move or not, if an unexpected event was bringing you back to the UK, just after the permanent export, you would need to know if you could still drive the exported vehicle with UK plates on public road in the UK, and for how many days, or if you would have to take another transport mean to avoid being clamped]
   

Making things clearer for citizens-tax payers-motorist and more consumer friendly has always been the best policy for public services, and written in a similar way as above, I'm pretty sure I would have avoided these problems.

Edited August 13, 2012 by trandbert

[dw190]

error

[trandbert]

error

This seems a short answer but I guess it was because 3 was a bit speculative

[trandbert]

the date of the permanent export is the date the vehicle left Great Britain.

In accordance with section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, the notification of the export should be 'immediate'.

Extracted from section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002:

the registered keeper shall immediately notify the Secretary of State of the fact and, at the same time, surrender the registration document to him.

 

If this is the applicable law, I'm afraid the second part of the sentence that I've highlighted in bold makes things more difficult, as to registre FR plates you need to surrender the DVLA registration document to the FR authority: the prefecture !

 

However, following this discussion, it make sense to take the date of crossing the border (as for any other export) as the date to take into consideration in V5C/4.

In my case the official date for the permanent export was the 26/08/10.

I've just misunderstood the date to take into consideration in V5C/4, errare humanum est.

Will send a letter explaining to DVLA that I've musunderstood the date to take into consideration in V5C/4, with all proofs.

This should sort out this case, If UK legal definition for permanent export is the one you taught me and P85 claims prevail against V5C/4 claim.

If DVLA closes the case, this will prove DVLA is rather a public service than just a tax machine.

Thanks Raykay for helping me building these thoughts.

Edited August 13, 2012 by trandbert

[Raykay]

Extracted from section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002:

the registered keeper shall immediately notify the Secretary of State of the fact and, at the same time, surrender the registration document to him.

 

If this is the applicable law, I'm afraid the second part of the sentence that I've highlighted in bold makes things more difficult, as to registre FR plates you need to surrender the DVLA registration document to the FR authority: the prefecture !

The words 'and, at the same time, surrender the registration document to him' were removed from regulation 17 by The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2004.