2nd Hand BMW bought from Well Known Dealer - SoGA Rejection / Repair?

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

Good afternoon all, I'm really hoping for some guidance, on what's turning out to be a stressfull car purchase.

 

06/07/12: Saw second hand BMW 5 Series (Touring) for sale at a certain well known dealer (Motherwell branch. I live in Wrexham). I emailed their web-sales team to start negotiations and pose questions regarding the vehicle (considering the 250 miles train journey required). Questions below:

 

• What warranty does the car come with and is it local or national (i.e Car Care Plan)?
  
• How long / many miles until next service is due?
  
• Does it come with 12 months MOT?
  
• What's front and rear tyre wear like (mm's)?
  
• What does iDrive detail for each diagnostic point (miles til oil check, break fluid, pads and discs)?
  
• Are there any external dents, scratches or scuffs (alloys included)?
  
• Internal scratches or tears?
  
• Has the car been in any accidents / had any structural / aesthetic repair work?
  

 

Received a reply as follows:

 

• Used cars are sold with 2 months warranty. Warranty repairs can be done in any ***** branch. In some exceptional cases we can authorise work to be carried out by separate VAT registered garages, but that’s at the branch manager’s discretion. **
  
• Serviced and MOTd by us on 22nd June 2012
  
• At least 6mm tread on all tyres
  
• iDrive shows 19000 miles for everything except brake pads, which show 28000 miles
  
• No damage on the bodywork or interior
  
• No evidence of accidents/structural or aesthetic repair work having been done.
  

 

07/07/12: Took the two trains and one bus trip required to get to the dealer in Motherwell, and after a long wait (50 mins) was able to see the car. IT looked to be a stunning, silver 5 Series, and despite it raining heavily and being overcast, I took time to wipe as much water from the panels to check for dents, scratches and blemishes. It all looked fine, and I continued to purchase the car. Driving home, I stopped near home (as the car was now dry) to appreciate the car (I drove a 52 plate Corsa before this!). I was absolutely gutted to see that there were patches on the bonnet, both sides and the roof. They're highly visible in direct sunlight, and during visit to a local bodyshop I learned they were called 'bag marks'. There were other issues present too (darker, defined patches on the bonnet, which I've learned are moisture marks, and some fairly deep scratching to a few panels). The guy at the repair place advised that the car had received a majority re-spray, and that although the respray was generally very good, and that the issues present could happen to any body repairer, the issues weren't acceptable and should have been dealt with.

 

I contacted the dealers, and sent through photographs of the issues, asking for their assistance. Their reply, in a nutshell, was 'tough luck', as I'd checked the car over and bought it as seen. Their argument is that a 58 plate car should be expected to have bodywork issues.

 

My argument is that I'd received a written response from them to advise the car was without damage, and that there was no evidence of repair work, and I see this as a SoGA issue.

 

08/07/12 to 15/07/12: Emails back and forth, basically saying the same things.

 

15/07/12: After speaking with another customer of the local bodywork repair place (luckily a solicitor), I sent an email and letter detailing the problems, and that they had 7 days to respond, regarding covering the cost of repairs, or receiving the vehicle back (I'd prefer to keep the car, as mechanically, it appears sound).

 

20/07/12 to 27/07/12: Family holiday. Returned on 27th July to find no responses to my email / letter.

 

I guess my question is, is it unreasonable of me to expect them to address the issues? I understand I bought the vehicle and drove it away, but it was only when the vehicle was in sunlight that I could see the problems (numerous 'bag marks', on all panels other than the tail of the vehicle, moisture marks and fairly deep scratches in 4 or 5 locations).

 

Do I have a case? If so, is it clear?

 

Thanks so much, in advance, for any guidance you can offer.

[ashmk]

If they have said in writing that there is no damage on the bodywork then I think they will be pretty foolish to now fob you off.

[oddjobbob]

It's difficult to say withuot seeing it to be quite honest.

 

But they really don't have to take it back for cosmetic reasons and may well claim you used abrasive etc when yuo cleaned it, or put it thru a faulty car wash etc and that you inspected the car fully prior to purchase and were happy with the bodywork.

 

It really is a salutary lesson nEVER to buy a car in the rain.

 

I've bought 5000 of them before I retired and I never did!

 

But be lucky anyway

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

@ashmk - I think the same, but they clearly think they have no responsibility in the matter!

 

@oddjobbob - If the issues weren't these 'bag marks', then I could certainly understand them thinking I may have done something to the paintwork, however I contacted them on the very same day, before I'd arrived home from collecting the car, and my local body repair specialist has confirmed they're due to the car having a majority respray. I have a quotation for the issues to be rectified (bonnet moisture patches, bag-marks and several deeper scratches), of £950 +VAT, but I'll be most disheartened if I'm left with this bill, in light of their written confirmation that bodywork was good, and that the vehicle hadn't had any aesthetic repair work.

 

I guess they could plead ignorance, however the V5 shows the previous owner to me, as being the Finance arm of this particular dealership, since new.

[scaniaman]

How did you pay for the car? If CC or HP or even Visa debit, report to credit provider and ask for charge back. When dealer finds out, this may prompt them to meet your claim. If its the SHARK you bought it from, they have a well known saying "We never take a car back". Alternatively, write them (rec del) and say you are having the car repaired and you will be sending them the bill. Failure to pay timeously will lead to court action.

Sounds like car was a leased car and they won't spend very much on it prior to resale.

Incidently, what is the milage?

[heliosuk]

This is all well and good but 5 Series tourings have been on the market for a considerable number of years now. Water contamination in paint is usually limited to droplets and not areas, in thirty years I have not heard of bag marks.

 

In order to get some perspective on this it might be an idea to post some pictures of the paintwork condition along with age and mileage together with price paid.

 

It's never a good idea to look at a car in the wet but the way you describe the defects they would have been apparent in the wet.

 

I think you will be on a hiding to nothing here especially as the dealer is so far away. Sure take them to court as you will be advised but that's only the first step to getting it sorted.

[Spookydragon]

Their reply, in a nutshell, was 'tough luck', as I'd checked the car over and bought it as seen.

 

Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order 1976 S1 1976/1813

 

Any statement which would cause a reasonable person to conclude that he would not be able to pursue a justified claim against a retailer would be prohibited and therefore illegal. Examples of statements which the courts have deemed illegal are as follows:

 

a) 'No Cash Refunds'

b) 'No Sale Goods Exchanged or Money Refunded'

c) 'Sold as Seen and Inspected'

d) 'Please Examine Your Goods with Care Because our Liability Ends Once they Leave the Premises'

e) 'No Refunds or Exchanges Without a Receipt'

 

 

Unless specific faults are pointed out to the customer at the time of purchase, the law will apply in exactly the same way, and the customer's legal rights remain the same. If a fault is pointed out to a customer before a purchase is made, then no claim can be made in relation to that fault. However, if a separate fault develops, the customer may be entitled to a refund.

 

Thus, even for the sale of seconds or rejects, it is illegal to display a notice which indicates that no redress will be made in the case of a complaint.

 

DOES THE LAW APPLY ONLY TO NOTICES?

No, such statements are also illegal if used in the following circumstances:

 

a) published in an advertisement

b) marked on goods

c) included on a document given in relation to a consumer sale,

e.g. order form, invoice, delivery note

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

How did you pay for the car? If CC or HP or even Visa debit, report to credit provider and ask for charge back. When dealer finds out, this may prompt them to meet your claim. If its the SHARK you bought it from, they have a well known saying "We never take a car back". Alternatively, write them (rec del) and say you are having the car repaired and you will be sending them the bill. Failure to pay timeously will lead to court action.

Sounds like car was a leased car and they won't spend very much on it prior to resale.

Incidently, what is the milage?

 

I paid in full with a Visa Debit Card. Do you really think taking the route of charge back would even be entertained?

 

When you say SHARK, if that's a work that rhymes with th second name of the dealers in question, you'd be spot on.

 

As for the car, it's a 520d (58 plate), with 56k on the clock, and was priced at £13k.

 

As for the car being listed in their name since new, I find it difficult to believe that they wouldn't be in the know about the car receiving a majority respray.

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order 1976 S1 1976/1813

 

Any statement which would cause a reasonable person to conclude that he would not be able to pursue a justified claim against a retailer would be prohibited and therefore illegal. Examples of statements which the courts have deemed illegal are as follows:

 

a) 'No Cash Refunds'

b) 'No Sale Goods Exchanged or Money Refunded'

c) 'Sold as Seen and Inspected'

d) 'Please Examine Your Goods with Care Because our Liability Ends Once they Leave the Premises'

e) 'No Refunds or Exchanges Without a Receipt'

 

 

Unless specific faults are pointed out to the customer at the time of purchase, the law will apply in exactly the same way, and the customer's legal rights remain the same. If a fault is pointed out to a customer before a purchase is made, then no claim can be made in relation to that fault. However, if a separate fault develops, the customer may be entitled to a refund.

 

Thus, even for the sale of seconds or rejects, it is illegal to display a notice which indicates that no redress will be made in the case of a complaint.

 

DOES THE LAW APPLY ONLY TO NOTICES?

No, such statements are also illegal if used in the following circumstances:

 

a) published in an advertisement

b) marked on goods

c) included on a document given in relation to a consumer sale,

e.g. order form, invoice, delivery note

 

Thank you for this, it's very very useful to know.

 

Do you lovely people think getting a solicitor to draft a letter would perhaps prompt the dealers to provide some actual customer service. Ideally, I don't want to return the car, and would much prefer for the issues to be addressed, so would be grateful for any guidance offerered which might aid this outcome.

 

I will certainly try to get some photos up, however the point it was advertised as having no damage, or aesthetic repairs having been done seems to me that this would fall under 'not as described'.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm certainly open to being told so.

[scaniaman]

Why on earth would a prestigious car??? like a beamer, only 4 yrs old, and 56K need a respray of any kind????

Is it red by any chance?

Perhaps you may consider asking the above question to be answered by Alisdair Craig, customer services manager at SHARKS HQ in Glasgow!

You MIGHT even get a reply!!!!!!!

 

 

Arnold Shark Never Again.

[rebel11]

Hi AW

 

Here's some information, there's a chart on page 28. :-

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf

[scaniaman]

Reference your post 8, i do think this route may bring results as your initial statement intimated that the car was not up to what they had said ie car misdescribed---had had a paint job.

I was not aware that sharks had a BMW dealership in Motherwell. If it was not a bmw dealership,

that raises other questions in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharks involvement with BMW is through the aquisition of existing BMW dealerships.

[ashmk]

Arnold Clark are all over these forums, I'm surprised they can keep going.

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

Reference your post 8, i do think this route may bring results as your initial statement intimated that the car was not up to what they had said ie car misdescribed---had had a paint job.

I was not aware that sharks had a BMW dealership in Motherwell. If it was not a bmw dealership,

that raises other questions in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharks involvement with BMW is through the aquisition of existing BMW dealerships.

 

Hi scaniaman, thanks for the input.

 

The car's Titan Silver, which I think is what makes seeing these all over marks difficult to see in the rain, and in overcast conditions.

 

The Motherwell store isn't specifically BMW, so what questions does this raise for you?

 

I, personally, have no doubt that the car's been misrepresented, but AC haven't evn responded to my letter in which I requested a response within 7 days, which makes me feel as though they're not taking my complaint seriously.

 

Can anyone recommend action that doesn't involve the costs of a solicitor (yet), and will be likely to get them to engage? Trad Stad? CaB?

 

All, thanks again for your responses, I'm incredibly grateful.

[scaniaman]

Reply to post14. The question you refer to is that main dealers tend to keep all the top notch cars for retail sale on their own premises. (suspect car supplied by Harry Fairweather, bmw glasgow, now AC) If car fails to meet high standards for used bmw, then it will be punted elsewhere. Having said that, the workings of this company beggars belief. Also suspect car was a leased car and may have been thrashed by person or persons within a company, not nurtured, and generally not up to standards set by bm for their used cars.

Defects in silver painted cars can sometimes be hard to spot, as my daughter can testify to.

Regards AC not responding to your letters, i found this to be their tactics when faced with a problem which they don't want to entertain. STONEWALLING----there is a piece on this form about it and an amusing caption.

I do not know who operates TS in Motherwell, but if it's Glasgow TS then don't bother contacting them. (I had to go to the OFT to get Glasgow TS to respond.) As previously stated, i would suggest that you get your MP to contact John Fingleton head of OFT and put your case. He already has complaints about AC.

We all have different ways in reacting to any given situation, but if i were in your shoes i would firstly contact your debit card provider (VISA?) and warn them that you may require chargeback because you cannot get a response from dealer to settle your complaint. I shall try and find out who operates TS in Motherwell.

If you decide to go down the SOGA route, don't threaten clark's unless you fully intend to carry out the whole of this process.

Sorry i can't be of more help.

[AWretchSavedByGrace]

Thanks scaniaman, details of who operatest TS in Motherwell would be most appreciated.

[scaniaman]

Right then. TS in some areas have a "Protocall". This means that you should firstly contact your local TS office with details of your complaint. They will then send your complaint to the TS in who's area the dealer operates. Your complaint is then taken forward by them.

North Lanarkshire Council operate TS for Motherwell. Their phone number is 01698 274210. You can get them on the net (motherwell ts) Contact:- Senior TS Officer,

Dalziel Buildings, 7, Scott Street, Motherwell,Ml1 1SX.

Hope this helps.

Still think you should contact debit card provider---they are the money men and AC only understand their GOD---MONEY.