Driving with an expired licence

[Rilly518]

Hi

i hope this is the right place to post this as I need some advice.

 

A couple of months ago I was stopped because one of my headlights was out.

After giving my details it turns out that my licence had expired.

 

 

A couple of days ago I received a summons for

 

1-driving a motor vehicle otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising you to drive a motor vehicle of that class.

Contrary to section 87(1) of the RTA 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988

 

2-used a motor vehicle on a road or other public place when there was not in force in relation to that use such a policy of insurance

as complied with the requirements of Part VI of the Road Traffic Offencder Act 1988. Contrary to section 143 of the RTA 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988

 

I agree that charge 1 is correct as my photo card licence had expired,

however, is this enforceable as I am entitled to hold a licence until I am 70 years old.

 

Am I correct in thinking this?

 

If so, should I plead guilty or not guilty?

 

Is there any way I could put together some sort of letter outlining this (I immediately renewed my licence)

asking for the charge to be discontinued?

 

Also, would this have an impact on the 2nd charge of driving without valid insurance?

 

Thanks for any help anyone is able to give.

[BanditQueen]

I feel sorry about this as I wish I had the answer but I am actually unsure as the law changed some time ago, but what is it now?

 

I have my full paper license and a photo license that I got as it was at first the thing to do and then I changed address

and got a new card license and my paper license and like you,

 

I have never had my license revoked or taken away from me or done anything wrong while driving.

 

A few months ago my photo on the license ran out and I could not afford the money to renew the photo,

but the license says it runs out the same as my paper one in 2033, when I am 70.

 

I have no idea if I need to do anything about this and as I have not actually driven for six years it is not a priority.

 

My spouse drives and he is in the situation were he never applied for the Euro License and has a full paper license and I have been told that is fine;

but when you get the photo license the thing has to be renewed every 10 years.

 

I recently actually looked at it and contrary to the letter, the actual license does not run out to end of July 2012 the same time as my passport.

 

I am totally confused, but will now get the card one, having taken a copy of it, as licences have come back with errors on.

 

I would actually, get proper legal advice,

contact the DVLA and demand to know why you were not contacted to renew the licence,

that you never knew it had to be renewed and that you now want to sort it out.

 

Then get a canny lawyer to sort it out for you and plead NOT GUILTY as you did not do this on purpose and you have no reason to have lost your license.

 

Your license is clean and you did not know that the paper one was not good enough;

you are in the same boat as 90% of the driving population.

 

They should cut you some slack here.

 

I hope it turns out, but this is not the place to get help on this, you need proper legal advice from the CAB or the Community Legal Advice or a local solicitor.

[dx100uk]

there really was a very big and long campaign about 100'000's of drivers

whom were going to be in the same position

renew your photo licence NOW.

 

the time for 'slack' or forgetfullness has long run out.

 

no vaild licence auto invalidates your insurance.....

 

dx

[crem]

I don't think it is clear cut as that. i.e. having an expired photo is not the same as having an expired licence per se.

 

Your licence to drive (assuming no medical restrictions) is valid until you are 70 years old. On the "new" two part licence system you have to renew the photo every 10 years. This doesn't mean your licence to drive expires every 10 years. I am not sure this has been tested in court yet, but knowing our money grabbing governemts and DVLA I would have thought such a case won't be long. I know we will all be interested in the outcome.

[dx100uk]

thanks crem

 

dx

[Rilly518]

I don't think it is clear cut as that. i.e. having an expired photo is not the same as having an expired licence per se.

 

Your licence to drive (assuming no medical restrictions) is valid until you are 70 years old. On the "new" two part licence system you have to renew the photo every 10 years. This doesn't mean your licence to drive expires every 10 years. I am not sure this has been tested in court yet, but knowing our money grabbing governemts and DVLA I would have thought such a case won't be long. I know we will all be interested in the outcome.

 

Thanks for this Crem-I have been in touch with a solicitor who agrees that the photo card expiring doesn't invalidate the licence and that this therefore means that my insurance may also have been valid. I'm sending the paperwork across for them to look through. There will be a cost to this but it will be cheaper than paying £1000 fine for each charge and the increased insurance premiums that the points on my licence will bring!!

I'll let you know the outcome as I'm sure I'm not the only person that this has happened to.

[green_and_mean]

I don't think it is clear cut as that. i.e. having an expired photo is not the same as having an expired licence per se.

 

Your licence to drive (assuming no medical restrictions) is valid until you are 70 years old. On the "new" two part licence system you have to renew the photo every 10 years. This doesn't mean your licence to drive expires every 10 years. I am not sure this has been tested in court yet, but knowing our money grabbing governemts and DVLA I would have thought such a case won't be long. I know we will all be interested in the outcome.

 

Section 99 of the 1988 RTA would seem to state otherwise.

[reallymadwoman]

Check the wording in your policy and/or speak to your insurers too.

 

It's some time since I was in the motor insurance business but the relevant clause used to be along the lines of 'holds or has held and is not disqualified from holding a valid licence'.

[Rilly518]

Section 99 of the 1988 RTA would seem to state otherwise.

 

But they didn't charge me with Section 99 and Im not sure that Section 87 (which they did charge me with) is valid as my licence wasn't expired-only the photo was

[green_and_mean]

But they didn't charge me with Section 99 and Im not sure that Section 87 (which they did charge me with) is valid as my licence wasn't expired-only the photo was

 

Section 87 is the offence of not having a valid licence, section 99 states a licence is only valid if the photocard is renewed correctly.

[Rilly518]

Check the wording in your policy and/or speak to your insurers too.

 

It's some time since I was in the motor insurance business but the relevant clause used to be along the lines of 'holds or has held and is not disqualified from holding a valid licence'.

 

I phoned my insurance to check this and they said that driving with an expired photo card wouldn't invalidate my policy with them! So this means that the 2nd charge, driving without valid insurance, isn't true at all!! I'm getting this in writing from my insurer to send to the court in hope that they'll drop the charge.

[green_and_mean]

I phoned my insurance to check this and they said that driving with an expired photo card wouldn't invalidate my policy with them! So this means that the 2nd charge, driving without valid insurance, isn't true at all!! I'm getting this in writing from my insurer to send to the court in hope that they'll drop the charge.

 

Whilst not doubting what you were told on the phone I'm amazed they will cover you to drive a car without a valid licence!

[crem]

Inventing the 2 part licence with a need to update the photo every 10 years was just another step in the direction of turning us into a nation of criminals and/or a bottomless money pit to be dipped into when short of money.

 

I can't find the stats at the moment but I believe when last looked at they recond there were 10s of thousands, if not 100s of thousands of drivers that may be unaware of the fact their photo has expired.

[Tony P]

Do DVLA send reminders for this, as a Service to its Customers?

 

I don't know.

But I can see it is not in their financial best interest to do this if they can catch people out and chase Out of Court settlements.

[crem]

no, the DVLA do not send out reminders that the photo has expired.

 

However, unlike letting people forget to re-tax their car then hitting them with an LLP. I do not believe there is any "automatic" penalty paid to the DVLA when your photo expires. It is worse than that in so far as it appears if you forget to update your photo you are now a criminal!

[BanditQueen]

[EDIT] Some people have good reasons to forget things;

such as just having lost a loved one; being ill; old, generally forgetful and why should a photo license run out after 10 years?

 

I will tell you why this is the case: money, the DVLA needs your money.

 

The thing was introduced because of money and trends abroad and it means you pay them £20.00 every time you make a change or renew it.

 

If you are entitled to a licence until you are 70, then that it how it should be.

 

But the law changed at some point and there are actually millions of people who have never applied for a photo licence as they were never informed to get one.

 

Get off your high horse and come back down to earth with the rest of the humans!

Yes, we should remember to renew our licence every ten years, but it can get overlooked and if someone thinks that it is not required, then the DVLA should inform them.

 

I am not driving,[EDIT], and the insurance is in my husband's name and his licence has been renewed, [EDIT]

Edited June 15, 2012 by dx100uk
behave - dx

[BanditQueen]

The DVLA do send out reminders. They send me one, but as I was not driving, I did not bother. When I start to drive again, I will bother. My partner drives for me. They are not always on the ball with the photo reminder and they are not up to date with their records. In order to be a criminal, you have to have done it on purpose. If you simply forgot or had a good reason, such as ill health, this is a valid defense and it is not criminal.

[BanditQueen]

Your license is valid if the original full paper licence is valid. The photo is what is being renewed every 10 years, not the actual licence. If you have not turned 70 or had your licence taken from you for driving offences, then your licence is perfectly fine until it is revoked. The photo is what they actually ask you to renew. The back of the card actually reads that it is valid until the year you are 70, if you care to look. That is also what is on the record and what the insurance go by. I worked for motor insurance for years.

[green_and_mean]

Your license is valid if the original full paper licence is valid. The photo is what is being renewed every 10 years, not the actual licence. If you have not turned 70 or had your licence taken from you for driving offences, then your licence is perfectly fine until it is revoked. The photo is what they actually ask you to renew. The back of the card actually reads that it is valid until the year you are 70, if you care to look. That is also what is on the record and what the insurance go by. I worked for motor insurance for years.

 

Strange then that the statute says the opposite? The law clearly states a licence only remains valid subject to the photocard being renewed every ten years, no photo card = no licence!

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

That is correct the licence is invalidated if the photograph

is not updated as required every 10 years, it is cut and dried

and there can be no argument about it.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

There is a holographic reminder on the photocard

bottom LH corner which shows when the card must

be renewed.

[crem]

There is a holographic reminder on the photocard

bottom LH corner which shows when the card must

be renewed.

 

That type of "reminder" only works if you are looking at it regularly.

 

As it is not a requirement to carry your DL with you in the UK, many people I am sure keep it "safely" in a documents drawer at home, never to be looked at until needed. For a lot of people this "need" might be never. My wife got a photo licence about 2 or 3 years ago and it is still neatly and safely kept in the brown envelope that it arrived in!

[BanditQueen]

As you have only been charged under Section 97 and not 99, then you can probably have a defense to this; the photo being out of date does not invalidate your full licence and I would suggest that first of all this is not the place to get advice on this legal issue and you should only get advice from a properly educated and trained solicitor who will look at your individual case and how you came to allow it to run out in the first place. The DVLA can actually use some discretion as to how far they take the prosecution or if they are willing to drop it as long as you renew your licence. If you have a good reason, the courts also may show some discretion towards being lenient in this case. I would not have come onto a forum with an issue like this as it only attracts the rubbish advice of a load of miss-informed, know it alls, who although they may be well meaning, are not experts in every aspect of the law, and as this is a legal matter it is only a qualified lawyer who can give you proper legal advice and will know all of your options. You have spoken to a solicitor who has pointed out that the photo not being renewed does not invalidate the full licence, as the licence has not been revoked. You have to renew the photo, but obviously forgot; that has probably happened to at least a million other people driving, so you are not the first and will not be the last. I would also suggest most of the know it alls on this site have also done something similar at some time and would not be so coy if they found themselves in the same boat. There are always ways of dealing with these matters that do not necessarily result in a full prosecution and I am sure that your solicitor will be able to talk to the DVLA and may even be able to get you off with a warning rather than a full prosecution, as you overlooked something, you did not do it on purpose. The fact that you are concerned proves that; you would not care if you had. Again, this is not the sort of thing that should have been brought to this forum, these people are alright with debt matters, this is a serious legal matter and the law is actually more complex than most lay people think. Leave it up to your solicitor and I am sure everything will be fine. Good luck. Hope it turns out alright.

[green_and_mean]

Again, this is not the sort of thing that should have been brought to this forum, these people are alright with debt matters, this is a serious legal matter and the law is actually more complex than most lay people think. Leave it up to your solicitor and I am sure everything will be fine. Good luck. Hope it turns out alright.

 

Hysterical!! The only thing that should not be on this forum is people that haven't got a clue what they are on about that obviously cannot even be bothered to read something they quote from giving stupid advice. You cannot be charged under section 99 as its not an offence to fail to renew your photo licence, its an offence to have a valid licence which is section 97. Since section 99 states a licence is only valid if the photocard is renewed every 10 years it doesn't take a genious (or a solicitor) to work out that if you have not done so your licence is not valid and you are guilty of a section 97 offence. Maybe if you spent more time reading up on the law than you do insulting those that spend hours of their free time helping others you would know that!!

[BanditQueen]

That type of "reminder" only works if you are looking at it regularly.

 

As it is not a requirement to carry your DL with you in the UK, many people I am sure keep it "safely" in a documents drawer at home, never to be looked at until needed. For a lot of people this "need" might be never. My wife got a photo licence about 2 or 3 years ago and it is still neatly and safely kept in the brown envelope that it arrived in!

 

Yes you are bound to be able to see that, hidden in a corner of a hologram!

We all get it out on a regular basis and have perfect memories after a couple of years! Yea, right!