Destinylondon and Harlands problems

[destinylondon]

hi there all i am having trouble with these same clowns it started with krunch gym and harlands was dealing with the claim and now it is with crs claiming i owe 700 they have added 170 to the whole year and same charges harlands made of 25. i made one month payment and lost my job and couldnt keep up with payments, i have sent a letter to dispute the debt in which they sent bck a letter to basically say i have been sent the contract i signed on the net and that i am liable for the full amount i do not intend to pay them a penny and plan on just changing my mobile number and just binning the letters as they turn up is this wise???

[innocent_man]

hi there all i am having trouble with these same clowns it started with krunch gym and harlands was dealing with the claim and now it is with crs claiming i owe 700 they have added 170 to the whole year and same charges harlands made of 25. i made one month payment and lost my job and couldnt keep up with payments, i have sent a letter to dispute the debt in which they sent bck a letter to basically say i have been sent the contract i signed on the net and that i am liable for the full amount i do not intend to pay them a penny and plan on just changing my mobile number and just binning the letters as they turn up is this wise???

 

Welcome aboard Matey.

 

Ok so first thing first, never call the debt collections from your mobile or land line number at all. Personally I have all the letters scan and saved in a folder incase I need those later. So I think your do the same. Otherwise pro will tell you what to do best. Good luck

[destinylondon]

nice one pal yeah i have started to keep all the letters i have sent a letter of dispute and they have just sent some long ass letter back say no you still owe us the money i asked for a copy of my contact and they sent me a t&C and a print out of a dd payment schedule none of these have my scribble on them they have give me 10 days to reply shall i post up the letters i sent and the letter i got in return??

[slick132]

Hi Destinylondon and welcome to CAG

 

I've moved your posts into your own thread that you can use from now on.

 

Can we have some more info from you :-

 

1. When did you sign up online.

 

2. Did the gym or Harlands respond enclosing a copy of your contract, the m/ship Terms and Conditions and details about cancelling the contract within a cooling off period applicable to online sign ups.

 

3. Have you cancelled the DD mandate through your bank.

 

4. Have you cancelled the m/ship. If so, did you write a letter or email,or phone them or visit the gym, or what.

 

You should read other threads here to see how others are dealing with Harlands and/or CRS, and other gyms and their admin companies.

 

Despite what CRS will tell you (often at great length), their admin fees for late payments, etc are effectively penalties and are not enforceable at law.

 

Also, most of what CRS say is hot air and their threats of court action never lead to it. They try to bully, bluff and intimidate.

 

Let us have some answers and we'll see if we can offer some opinions that may help.

 

[destinylondon]

i signed up on 26th september, they took first dd on the 7th oct 2011 and was to be the same for each month.

 

i think they sent out a dd schedule but not sure if they sent with that the terms and conditions of the contract.

 

i made the first payment for the month and later the next month i was struckoff from work. after, i informed them of my situation "with harland" of having been struck off they charged me 25 as i had a returned dd,

 

i called and got them to drop the charge. After i had unable to get employment and i had the same trouble and had the same problem this time they would not drop it they agreed to split the cost over the following months and i think this happened up untill a few weeks after not receiving payment they stop my gym usage and sent the payments over to crs.

 

at this point i canceled my dd.

 

i did not cancel my membership with the gym as i was hoping to continue after i was in a better situation,

 

at this point crs had taken the debt and added 170 and told me if i paid i still can not use the service, so i sent a letter to dispute the debt i got from another site but got a letter bck just disregarding it .

 

i have read alot up on them and know how they work but as im in a contract will this make a difference and do u think they will take it to court?

Edited April 2, 2012 by slick132
Paragraphs added so reading is easier

[slick132]

Hi Destiny,

 

When you post, please use paragraphs. Without them, reading blocks of text with no Capitals is hard-going. I've sorted the above post.

 

Please check so you are certain exactly what was sent to you after you joined online.

 

You'll see the importance of this when you read the post here and follow the link to the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Reg'ns 2000 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?344417-Xcercise-for-less&p=3777475&viewfull=1#post3777475

 

The cancellation of your DD can be construed as your giving notice to cancel the gym m/ship.

 

i have read alot up on them and know how they work but as im in a contract will this make a difference and do u think they will take it to court?

The reason for all my questions is to try and establish whether you are, in fact, in a contract. If they failed to provide you with the necessary paperwork after you signed up online, you may have grounds to argue that the contract was incomplete and that payments relating to it are not enforceable.

 

In any event, their admin fees are NOT enforceable. Also they will not take court action, based on experience here over the last few years.

 

[destinylondon]

ok well i am positive they sent me a dd instruction, including future payment schedule, which on there states

 

"you are committed to a minimum membership agreement with krunch gym and have elected to pay by monthly dd. Harlands will be admin the payments on behalf of krunch gym and we can confirm that the dd details provided by you are correct".

 

I remember getting this in the post....this is a copy i have requested from them, it came with a terms and conditions sheet also but i am not sure they sent this to me im almost certain they never as it has in there "which i wolud have read and become aware of".

 

FEES AND CHARGES "if you fail to pay monies due under this agreement or if any dd id returned unpaid or any cheque is returned unpaid or if any form is honoured for whtever reason, you shall pay us on demand an admin fee of 25."

 

it goes on to say....

 

"if you fail to pay any amount due under this agreement for a period of more than thirty days, then we may pass the debt to a third party company for collection. the reasonable cost incurred in employing the third party company will be done by you and in tracing you should you have changed address without telling us"

 

well this part i dont think i got sent with the dd schedule but was on the internet site most likely, i never used to read through this kinda stuff like a fool.

[destinylondon]

also the ball started rolling with them sending a letter i called them and said to them i am not in a contract and they should send proof they sent the above paperwork out to me after i sent them this letter which i was advised to do...

 

http://www.debtwizard.com/images/stories/files/debtwizard-harassment-letter-01.doc

 

 

in return i got this....

 

 

hi there after sending your letter to them this is the response i got, not sure what to do know......

 

Further to your letter of 24th march 2012,we wishto initially advise that we do not at this time recognise your dispute, because you have presented no grounds whatsoever for your dispute.

 

you are quite correct that the office of fair trading guidance on debt collection does confirm that it is unfair practise to send demands for payments to an individual when it is not certain that they are the debtor in question. All of our letters have been addressed to Mr Stuart ******** of ******* *************** . it is not therefore, uncertain at all that our demands have been sent to the debtor in question. your point is therefore irrelevant.

 

Again you are correct that the office of fair trading guidance on debt collection states that it is unfair to pursue third parties when they are not liable. This is also irrelevant, however, as you are not a third party. the parties not named in this agreement, such as ourselves, are third parties. You are the named agreement holder and as such ARE LIABLE for this debt.

 

You are also quite correct that the office of Fair Trading Guidance on debt collection stating that in not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt we would be guilty of unfair practise according to the OFT guidance.This is also completely irrelevent because you have raised no query, and given no grounds for dispute. Simply stating you dispute the debt is not reasonably disputed. we would further ask how we are meant to investigate your claims (which we are more than happy to do) when you have made no claims for us to investigate.

 

We have not ignored or disregarded your claims that you dispute this debt, and are entering into correspondence with you regarding the matter. Therefore your point to this is entirely irrelevant.

 

We are also familiar with section 40 of the Administration of justice act 1970 and as such are fully aware that we are in no way in breach of it. Section 40 of the adminisration act 1970 states that it is an offence to unduly harass a debtor by any means listed in section 40, subsection (1) (a) to (d).We have not committed any of the acts described in section (1)(b) to (d), and would invite you to prove otherwise. Furthermore, whilst we understand the acts described in section 40, subsection (1)(a) are subjective, we do not believe we are even guilty of this. If you dispute this, however, we would further point out that section 40, subsection (three) of the administrations of justice act 1970 confirms that:

 

(three) subsection (1)(a) above does not apply to anything done by a person which is reasonable (and otherwise permissible in law) for the purpose_

(a) of securing the discharge of an obligation due, or believed by him to be due, to himself or to persons for whom he acts,or protecting himself or them from future loss; or

(b) of the enforcement of any liabilty by legal process."

 

Both of which are true in this instance, and as such we are not guilty of an offence by sending "demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation"

 

We have already provided you with details of your contract with Krunch gym, if this has not satisfied you that this debt exists and that you are liable then we are under no obligation to do more unless you actually present grounds for your dispute.

 

Please feel free to take any action you deem necessary, we believe that any action you may take against us will ultimately be of no consequence, because we have in no way acted incorrectly, and are fully confident that this will be the findings of any third party who investigates the matter.

 

Penultimately, we will, for the time being, adhere to your request that we do not contact you by telephone. We must advise, however, that the office of Fair trading guidance on debt collection states that it is unfair practise to ignore a debtors Reasonable requests regarding how, when and where to contact them. If at any point in the future it is no longer reasonable to adhere to this request for whatever reason, we will revert to using any and all means avaliable to us to contact you.

 

we are sure that you understand that in the absence of any evidence to the contrary from you, it is our position that the balance of 700.40 remains due in full. Payments can be made via credit/debt card by calling us on ************.

 

A payment plan can also be set up if you are unable to pay in full, although we do charge a little extra for this.

 

Please ensure a payment is made in 10 working days to avoid further action being taken against you.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the point i am up to and not sure what to write back to them in return any ideas???

Edited April 3, 2012 by destinylondon

[slick132]

Hi Destiny,

 

I'll ignore post #8 for now. This is simply their big response to your big complaint. What we need to deal with are clear facts, as far as possible.

 

Re your post #7 above, I'm not quite clear exactly what you're saying here :-

I remember getting this in the post....this is a copy i have requested from them, it came with a terms and conditions sheet also but i am not sure they sent this to me im almost certain they never as it has in there "which i wolud have read and become aware of".

 

What I really need to know is, after you signed up online :-

 

1. Did they post to you a copy of your contract along with the Terms and Conditions relating to it.

 

2. If so, do you know what date you received it.

 

If you are not sure, please say so.

 

[destinylondon]

all i got was a copy of a dd schedule and possibly the terms and conditions sheet after i signed online (dated november 2011). when i asked for my contract in my letter, this is all i got back from them.

 

they make out this is my contract is it not??

[slick132]

Just after joining, they should have sent you a copy of your contract setting out various things such as :-

 

Their name and address.

 

Name and address of the gym.

 

Your name and address.

 

Your contact details re telephone and/or email.

 

Minimum period of contract.

 

Monthly fee payable.

 

Method of payment and date of the month the fee will be taken by DD.

 

Please confirm if you got any such document back from them within say 2 or 3 weeks of joining.

 

[destinylondon]

all i got was a dd schedule and terms and conditions......after looking on there site there contract or terms and conditions what are on there are different from the ones i got sent check this one out which states if i am made redundant

 

https://www.snapdda.co.uk/Clients/_MasterDocs/MasterTermsAndConditions.pdf

 

back to your question all i got was the dd schedule, it has info on:

 

my address

 

my bank details

 

harlands details

 

when they will collect first payment

 

and sorry it is dated 26th september 2011

 

so yes i remember receiving this. but the term and conditions they sent are different to the ones that are on there site now do u think they took parts out which might favor myself and if these are up now would they still work for me??

[destinylondon]

hi i was just having a think..... the contract they sent was the same it is just missing the cancellation section. do you think the best wy forward would be to dispute the terms and conditions on the grounds the gym fell below standards. as i have a different copy i plan on calling the gym to see if the terms and conditions have always been the same to see if these guys are trying there luck...what do you think?

[slick132]

Hi Destiny,

 

So it looks like they failed to send you a copy of the relevant m/ship contract which I think they should have done.

 

Also, regarding the T&C's Redundancy clause, did you mention redundancy to them in any letter.

 

[destinylondon]

no the only letter i have sent is the one above in the link the template letter....the only problem is im a sole trade/ self employed so kinda hard to prove unless my jsa papers where dated for around the same time i will have to check the p45 the jsa sent out.

[slick132]

i made one month payment and lost my job and couldnt keep up with payments

 

Were you employed by someone or were you self-employed when you lost your job.

 

I'm shutting off now but will be back tomorrow.

 

[destinylondon]

im self employed all year round but work for sub contractors,im always in and out of work...so i dont receive p45's when struck off

[slick132]

Hi Destiny,

 

Well, that makes the "Made Redundant" option more difficult to use.

 

You need to write to Harlands saying:-

 

1. You or the gym failed to comply with the requirements of the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000. A copy of my membership contract should have been sent to me when I joined. It was not sent at the time, nor has it been supplied since.

 

2. Accordingly, there's no contract in place and your demands are made without basis.

 

3. I have been unemployed since October 2011 and have no money with which to pay anyway.

 

4. You must cease all collection activity whilst this matter remains in dispute or I will report you to the OFT. This applies both to Harlands and to CRS (who are also Harlands).

 

I've kept it as short as possible, avoiding the long-winded approach used above.

 

Edited April 21, 2012 by slick132
typo

[destinylondon]

thanks i will draft somethink up and send it off i will let u know the outcome

[innocent_man]

Long time since I open this thread, they sent me letters for 6 months and then never heard of them at all.

[slick132]

Hi IM and thanks for the update.

 

It's good to hear from CAGgers about what has happened further down the line.

 

I hope the silence continues.

 

Harlands have recently given undertakings about their gym agreements to The OFT and I hope we see an improvement in how they treat their customers.