Safeloans issued Court Summons - please help

[loofyllis1972]

OK, so here's the latest....

 

Had mediation call this morning. Safeloans are basically denying that they have received any communication from me, and that is why the debt has escalated to £609.00. I explained I had written and they had not acknowledged my offers, and their response was that I could have called and this whole situation would have been avoided. Pointed out that as their communication was so shoddy, and often incorrect, I didn't trust them on the phone.

 

The upshot was they wanted the full £609 immediately, or over four months to avoid court. This I can't do. I reiterated my offer of £20 per month, and they will accept that but only on the full balance - no negotiation whatsoever. I offered £100 more than my defence to meet in the middle - £330 payable by £20 instalments. They declined. The best they will do is knock £50 off to give me a total balance of £559, and then I can pay that by instalments of £20 with a Tomlin order, and proof of my Income Support. (They claim to have asked for this, but I haven't got a letter from them about it).

 

I am mindful of the fact that if it goes to court I could end up paying nearer £900, and to be honest, am so drained by this all I am tempted to take the offer and be done with it. I am, frankly, quite worried about going to court and that it could end up worse for me.

 

I am also told by the Mediator that I cannot mention the mediation in court - ie can't mention the fact that I offered £330 today. So what was the point? Surely that would help my case?

 

What do people think? I have not had experience of the court process, nor of dealing with these parasites before, and am at the end of my tether. Court date is set for September 28th btw.

[sillygirl1]

The mediator is wrong, you CAN mention this in court, and put it in a defence.

 

If you are on income support then the MOST that Safeloans can have off you per month is £3.55, that is the legally permitted amount.

 

They really are taking the proverbial here.

 

Report them to the OFT and Trading Standards - if you don't you will be doing yourself an even bigger injustice.

[loofyllis1972]

Apparently the mediation process is 'without prejudice' and mentioning this in court or in my defence would 'prejudice' the judge. I have already reported them to OFT and Trading Standards.

 

What is a Tomlin order? Does this mean that Judgement is entered against me, or not?

[sillygirl1]

A Tomlin Order (in my opinion) is FAR worse than a judgement, which can be varied. If you miss a payment on a Tomlin Order it is straight to court for bailiff enforcement, no questions asked.

 

I would let this go to court, you CAN mention mediation if the judge asks was it tried, don't be fooled by what the mediator says, they should have had the nouse to get a judge to look at the stuff on the day of mediation - this has been done before with Minicredit and they caved in straight away...

[sillygirl1]

Basically yes, the judgement is still entered and the details will show in the Registry Trust register. (At least that is how it was explained to me). The Tomlin orders are rarely in your favour and cannot be varied as a court judgement can be.

 

If your income is solely benefits the maximum the court would order is £3.55, not sure if this is weekly or monthly but that is the MOST you would pay, so in reality they are chancing their luck.

 

Don't let them win this, you have a strong case as they have admitted they only want you to communicated by phone and seem unable to commit things in writing - one wonders how many administrative people work for them and at what level, this used to be a 2 man operation some years back and I believe it still is.

 

I will be in Croydon again on Saturday and going past their offices, it is a black door in a building near Surrey Street Market.

[sillygirl1]

Add this latest development to your OFT complaint.

[havinastella]

I have to agree with SG.

 

Tell them you will see them in Court and let a Judge decide.

[loofyllis1972]

But as their 'admission' they wanted me to deal on the phone was made to the Mediator, I doubt they will mention that in court! I just feel they must think they have a very strong case to have not budged an inch during the mediation process - and I am going to end up with an even bigger debt at the end of the court hearing.

 

Actually, the mediator appeared quite negative to me too - he kept reminding me that going to court could result in me ending up with fees for the court hearing, and travel costs for the defendant.

 

This is all stopping me sleeping now.

[loofyllis1972]

A Tomlin Order (in my opinion) is FAR worse than a judgement, which can be varied. If you miss a payment on a Tomlin Order it is straight to court for bailiff enforcement, no questions asked.

 

I would let this go to court, you CAN mention mediation if the judge asks was it tried, don't be fooled by what the mediator says, they should have had the nouse to get a judge to look at the stuff on the day of mediation - this has been done before with Minicredit and they caved in straight away...

 

Sorry, who should have got a Judge to look? Safeloans or the Mediator?

[renegadeimp]

Mediation is usually a terrible idea. They pretty much always side with the creditor as they think you do owe them and their job is to arrange payment. If you are adamant you do not owe them anything, tell the mediation service.. Thanks but no thanks.

[loofyllis1972]

I do owe them, and I am happy to pay what I owe - but this debt escalated in a ludicrous fashion, and they ignored my offers of payment. One of their gripes is that I didn't make any part payments to show willingness.

 

Just out of interest, I was told all I should admit is the original loan plus one months interest - do Judges tend to look at that as reasonable or not?

 

Safeloans just appear to hold the cards at the moment - they keep pulling new things out of the hat to use as part of their defence, and all I have is a pile of letters that they claim they haven't had! Just feeling very despondent. I thought that accepting the Mediation would show some willingness on my part to negotiate, but it has just left me feeling worse.

[sillygirl1]

You are forgetting one crucial point here - if your income is mostly comprised of benefits then they can only have an amoutn of £3.55 from your benefits, this has been confirmed to me that it is a maximum weekly amount.

 

They are very very stubborn because they believe you really do not want this to go to court - that is their reasoning.

 

Have you reported them to the OFT and Trading Standards as advised?

[loofyllis1972]

Yes SillyGirl - it has all been reported to OFT and Trading Standards, not that they seem that interested either.

 

I think too my situation will change shortly, and I will no longer be in receipt of IS - going s/e and claiming tax credits. That will then probably make it look like I was taking the proverbial with my offer, although in reality I probably won't have any more disposable income than I did before.

 

Seriously considering an IVA or something more drastic - maybe then I will get all my creditors off my back and will be able to sleep again. My mental health is seriously in decline with all this worry.

[sillygirl1]

I really wouldn't go down the IVA route, especially if you are going self employed - which won't be seen as taking the proverbial by a judge, you are getting off benefits which is what the PM wants people to do. I too am shortly going self-employed, got a skill I can use to make some money and do what I am good at.

 

I would consider bankruptcy, that way you can draw a line under this situation and maybe start rebuilding a credit history in 2-3 years time, it would be a better option as you can take this absurd amount of debt with the bankruptcy.

 

Why not write to Safeloans (you can PM me the letter and I can take it to their offices for you if you like, they also have an office in George Street, Croydon under the name of N Bolton..) and tell them this is what you have been advised - due to the level of debt and the inability to repay anyone other than a token amount due to your financial situation.

 

Have you got in touch with MP Stella Creasy who is very active in the payday loan market, she may have contacts who can put presure on this little lot.

[PDLVictim]

Hi Loofyllis1972,

 

I would take the offer and pay 20 GBP monthly for 559 GBP.

[loofyllis1972]

Hi Loofyllis1972,

 

I would take the offer and pay 20 GBP monthly for 559 GBP.

 

May I ask why you suggest this? Have you had personal experience of this company, or others like them?

[renegadeimp]

Hes a new person to the site and he takes the stance of trying to get rid of them asap like some other caggers do. However it doesnt take into account any unfair charges etc or the fact repayme nt plans are designed around the debtors circumstancea.

[PDLVictim]

Hi Loofyllis1972,

 

Of course you may ask

 

I have personal experience with SafeLoans (and a lot of other PDL), but none of these have taken me to court (as I was lucky enough to manage to set up repayment plans with all of them). I understand that this experience does unfortunately not help you in your current situation as you are already dealing with the court.

 

The reason I am suggesting to take the mediation offer is that (contrary to most people here ) I believe that most of the charges (interest / fee) might be enforceable through court. I am not a lawyer, this is just my opinion.

 

I have read through most of the threads on this website and I have so far not found many where a positive court outcome in a similar case is stated. I found one thread where the court dismissed the case (but only for formal reasons), and I found one thread where the court agreed with the PDL for the full amount and issued later an attachment of earning. Otherwise I found nothing, most threads just "fade away..."

 

The usual advice I find in most threads is:

- PDL can only charge loan amount plus one month interest, other fees/charges/interest is either unfair or after contract end

Usually a lot of regulations are cited in the threads to support this, but again I find little evidence that a court is ruling in the same way (but I see in most PDL contracts that they are indeed open ended and charges/fees/interest agreed upon upfront, so why should they not hold up in court is not clear to me. Yes, they are extremely high, but so is the interest in the first place and the UK unfortunately has no cap)

 

- Report case to OFT/FOS/MP Stella

Yes, this is definitely going to help us all in the future, as the PDL might face tougher regulations, but OFT will not help anyone in their case directly, FOS will only help if the PDL violates an agreement (e.g. a set-up repayment plan), and Stella (who is doing great work ) will be interested in any case, but will be also unlikely to help

 

- Go bankrupt, etc.

Well, this is definitely a way out (), but in my opinion should really be only considered as a very last resort, as this is a very drastic solution which will "haunt" you for quite a while (financially and emotionally)

 

I just think in your case (if you can afford 20 GBP per month) this might be the most "sensible" solution. You would pay it back in a little over 2 years (which is not too long), and you avoid the hassle of court. And, most importantly, you avoid the risk that the court ends up with a higher amount. Also if your situation changes by the time the court hearing is, you might be ordered to pay more.

 

Again, I am no legal person whatsoever, but whatever way you choose, keep us updated and good luck!

[loofyllis1972]

Thanks for the reply PDLVictim - that is certainly all food for thought.

 

I have to confess I have had a nose through other posts on here, and have come to the same conclusion regarding going to court.... but would love someone to prove me wrong. IF you have a 'positive outcome' from a court appearance -v- a PDL company, I would love to hear from you.

 

Thanks again for all the advice I have been given by everyone.

[Peterbard]

Hi Loofyllis1972,

 

Of course you may ask

 

 

- PDL can only charge loan amount plus one month interest, other fees/charges/interest is either unfair or after contract end

Usually a lot of regulations are cited in the threads to support this, but again I find little evidence that a court is ruling in the same way (but I see in most PDL contracts that they are indeed open ended and charges/fees/interest agreed upon upfront, so why should they not hold up in court is not clear to me. Yes, they are extremely high, but so is the interest in the first place and the UK unfortunately has no cap)!

 

HI

 

I was interested to read this, why would the loan be "open ended" there is a definite term on most agreement of one month?

 

DB

[PDLVictim]

Hi Dodgeball,

 

Thank you, my mistake

 

You are correct, the term of the agreement in most of them (not MiniCredit, who have an open-ended account) ends after e.g. a month. I think my point was that most of them mention the charges/fees and the post-contractual interest rate, so would not, even if the agreement is terminated, the liability still exist, as it was agreed upon in the first place?

 

I am more and more interested in hearing from any actual court outcomes, where it went past mediation into an actual court hearing and judgement... Most I find in the internet are from USA, but how do UK court decide?

[renegadeimp]

I dont think a PDL has ever won a fully defended court case. Most PDL's back right down and make every attempt to settle out of court as "a good will gesture" once they see that the defendant knows his/her rights and the law and they arent going to be a pushover, so the judges won't get to see whats been going on on.

 

They solely rely on judgement by default, and lack of knowledge/preperation by the defending party. In the latter case, they still have to rely on a judge issuing judgement against the defence, however its almost certain to go the claimants way as they can easily turn the tables, so to speak, to make it look as if the debtor is simply avoiding paying. Remember, most people who take out Payday loans are vunerable and need a quick cash fix. They lack the knowledge or reasoning to go to court and defend. This is what PDL's prey on.

[sillygirl1]

The main reason there have been very few court outcomes here is because either the company have discontinued (as in a lot of earlier cases) or given in during mediation (Minicredit did this a couple of times).

 

The bulk of people getting court papers for these debts would normally not defend on a public site, so therefore we don't know the full story. I bet there are loads of judgement by defaults for these companies out there and we are just the tip of this nasty iceberg.

 

Remember, they already charge a high interest rate so anything else they attempt to charge are penalties.

 

I am not legally trained nor have access to legal databases or books and have no inclination to study the matter. My skill lies in enabling somebody to get off their butts and do something rather than moan about it.

 

I am no longer taking an active role in this part of the forum [EDIT] , my experiences with PDL companies on a personal level is over 4 years old. Things have moved on since then and I am doing other things.

[Peterbard]

Hi Dodgeball,

 

Thank you, my mistake

 

You are correct, the term of the agreement in most of them (not MiniCredit, who have an open-ended account) ends after e.g. a month. I think my point was that most of them mention the charges/fees and the post-contractual interest rate, so would not, even if the agreement is terminated, the liability still exist, as it was agreed upon in the first place?

 

I am more and more interested in hearing from any actual court outcomes, where it went past mediation into an actual court hearing and judgement... Most I find in the internet are from USA, but how do UK court decide?

 

HI

 

Yes thanks. I hear what you say about the default charges being an "agreed charge", in that they are mentioned in the agreement. But i think this is where the PDL companies come unstuck.

 

The reason that these companies are tolerated is because they offer a short term credit solution, as they keep saying the interest on a short term is better that say an overdraft or late payment fee from a bank.

 

However if that interest continues even after termination it stretches the credibility of this argument to breaking point. I do not believe that a court would enforce the continued application of such a rate over an elongated period, let alone the addition of outrageous default charges.

 

I think the UTCCs culd be employed here and the unfair term provisions of the CCA 2006 if necessary.

 

DB

Edited August 6, 2012 by Dodgeball