Credit Resolution Service attempting to harass and threaten me.

[veni_vidi_vici]

This morning i was sent the following letter from CRS:

http://i44.tinypic.com/4llvte.jpg

 

 

 

 

I am baffled by this because my debt is with my gym and not them (I am in

overdraft

as a student and have missed payments), the gym gave me no warnings whatsoever that i had outstanding debts (its a county council gym) and passed this straight onto CRS.

 

While i am willing to pay the gym for my outstanding £135, i refuse to pay the £66.50 'owed' to the CRS because i think they have acted in an unfair and perhaps illegal manner. I have not began looking into the legal side but my initial thoughts are that they have jumped straight in trying to intimidate me without appreciating that i can counter argue what they are saying.

[dx100uk]

fees my foot

 

penaltty charges are unlawful

 

ignore them

 

dx

[slick132]

Hi VVV,

 

There will normally be something in your contract confirming that late payment and other admin matters will be dealt with by CRS or a third party.

 

If you read other threads here, you will find many where I've said that CRS Admin Fees are not legally enforceable for various reasons.

 

Unfortunately, CRS will not agree and sometimes go to great lengths to explain that their fees ARE enforceable and have been agreed by various official bodies, such as the OFT or Trading Standards. This is basically rubbish !!

 

So you may have to deal with CRS about paying what you owe the gym but you will not have to pay CRS's extra fees.

 

Can you confirm if you signed up for a minimum contract period and how long is it.

 

Were you aged 18+ when you signed up.

 

Have you cancelled your membership in writing.

 

Have you cancelled the Direct Debit if that's how you paid the m/ship fees.

 

When we get your answers, we will try to help you in dealing with CRS.

 

[slick132]

Please just use this thread to deal with this case from now on.

 

Various other posts that you made were copies and these have been removed.

 

Thanks

[veni_vidi_vici]

Hi VVV,

 

There will normally be something in your contract confirming that late payment and other admin matters will be dealt with by CRS or a third party.

 

If you read other threads here, you will find many where I've said that CRS Admin Fees are not legally enforceable for various reasons.

 

Unfortunately, CRS will not agree and sometimes go to great lengths to explain that their fees ARE enforceable and have been agreed by various official bodies, such as the OFT or Trading Standards. This is basically rubbish !!

 

So you may have to deal with CRS about paying what you owe the gym but you will not have to pay CRS's extra fees.

 

Can you confirm if you signed up for a minimum contract period and how long is it.

 

Were you aged 18+ when you signed up.

 

Have you cancelled your membership in writing.

 

Have you cancelled the Direct Debit if that's how you paid the m/ship fees.

 

When we get your answers, we will try to help you in dealing with CRS.

 

 

I was over 18 when i first signed the contract. I signed for 12 months. I have not cancelled the membership because they said i couldn't when i spoke to them. I sent them a letter which was never replied to. They then told me on the phone i could cancel because i had moved away for uni, but they didn't tell me this when i asked them about it at the contract signing. About this: " There will normally be something in your contract confirming that late payment and other admin matters will be dealt with by CRS or a third party." I feel that this still does not give the CRS the ability to incur their own charges as a third party. They have no jurisdiction in my affairs unless i give permission by agreeing that i owe them money. I had an agreement with the gym not the DCA.

 

This is my letter so far, please do point out what i might be wrong/missing out on, thanks:

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I am perfectly happy to pay my outstanding balance towards Durham County Council. In response to your fees, however, i disagree as a matter of law and principle.

 

At this stage, any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested and consider this matter to be in dispute. And i will insist that the case is heard before my local county court.

 

The court will want evidence that all steps to seek a resolution have been taken before proceedings commence and I do not believe that Durham County Council or CRS have fulfilled their obligations to this end yet.

 

My offer to pay the gym stands, but due to your intransigence and that of your clients, it seems that we can only achieve a reasonable outcome to this matter by allowing the courts to decide, although this will involve us both in extra expense and time wasted with court proceedings. Do we really want or need this? Or shall we have the mutually beneficial outcome of me paying my outstanding balance to the gym and leaving it at that?

 

 

If we are to go down the courtroom route, I will most likely make a misrepresentation claim against you for misrepresenting your charges as a debt I am liable for in the absence of any contractual obligation on my part (bear in mind that i do know that all you can rely upon is the contract which my legal advisors and i have studied and concluded that you don't have any rights to incur the extra £66.50 under the terms). I draw your attention to the OFT guidelines on debt collection:

 

 

Charging for debt collection

 

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

a. Claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express contractual or other legal provision.

 

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there is no contractual provision

 

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual and necessary costs

 

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

 

In this, I consider your charge of £66.50 to be disproportionate to the main debt and not based on actual and necessary costs. I would like you to explain the breakdown of those fees in front of a judge should the occassion arise. Especially since you have no legal rights to enforce them. Therefore the charge that CRS are making is wrong. At the very least, should you pursue this matter beyond my offer, you may be reported to the Office of Fair Trading immediately as charging fees for debt collecting and 'file transfer' is not a fair charge.

 

 

Also, in their guidance notes for collectors the OFT say that it is an Unfair practice to claim collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express contractual or other legal provision. However, even if you do have these, which i doubt, recent case law in the Ashbourne Management services case and the UCTA 1977 would suggest that any contract i had with Lifestyle Fitness was unfair anyway and certainly the court will take that into account; with substantial weight. Especially since i wrote a letter to the gym which was never replied to. Certainly though, as a first port of call i disagree with any notion that i have a contract with the CRS. Please also note as part of my defence in any court action you will be asked to justify this charge giving a complete Breakdown of the costs to the Judge.

 

 

Further, i do demand that you to stop sending me such letters to my home address in the future. Especially since you are quite possibly breaking anti-harassment laws. Any correspondence to me should be done via this email address or a legitimate order by the Court.

 

 

Indeed I believe you may be in breach of the:

 

Malicious Communications Act 1988. This deals with the sending of letters or articles for the purpose of causing 'distress or anxiety'. A person found guilty can be fined in the magistrate’s court. To prosecute successfully the letter or article sent would have to convey:

 

a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;

a threat; or

information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender.

 

 

I believe you cannot know whether or not your claim will be successful until a Judge decides, so you have sent me information which is inherently false until proven by a judge that i do owe you your £66.50, and thus currently your letter constitutes a threat becase of the inclusion of the "Colelctor" threat and the fact that bolded, underlined and red letters using such serious language would be deemed oppressive ( breaking part 2.5 of the OFT guidelines too) . If you continue to harass me in this manner I will be forced to take action with Police attendance under the protection from Harassment act 1997.

 

I may also take furtheraction under the Administration of Justice Act 1970 S.40, which makes it a Criminal Offence for a creditor or a creditor's agent to make demands (for money), which are aimed at causing 'alarm, distressicon or humiliation', because oftheir frequency or manner. Therefore, for the possibility that you may decide to phone me, I have created provisions which will enable me to record our conversations on the phone as evidence to be used in any Court hearing.

 

Additionally, I have heard from my advisors that the "collector" you refer to is a company known as "Face to Face". A company who are a group of self employed collectors with no legal power whatsoever. Should it be your intention to arrange a "doorstep call", please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment. I have no wish to make such an appointment with you. Further, there is only an implied license under the English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission: the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v Sheppard & Short Ltd [1959] 2 QB 384

, per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, from this, i bring to your attention that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property. If you do so, you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

I have made my position clear with a fair proposal for both of us.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

A.

[slick132]

Hi VVV,

 

You must check your contract to see what you agreed to.

 

Many contracts make it very clear that you are joining the gym but are dealing with the Admin Co re all admin matters. Of course, this does not mean the admin fees they levy are enforceable and we certainly maintain they are not, for various reasons.

 

If you were misled into signing because you were told you could easily cancel without penalty when you left for Uni, could you use CPUTR ? If you were given wrong information (told you could cancel when you needed to leave for Uni) and this led you to make a decision that you would otherwise not have made (you signed up).

 

I'm not sure about this point because you say above :-

 

I have not cancelled the membership because they said i couldn't when i spoke to them. I sent them a letter which was never replied to. They then told me on the phone i could cancel because i had moved away for uni, but they didn't tell me this when i asked them about it at the contract signing.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/regulation/5/made

 

You can see in this post that I referred to Section 5 (2), (a) and (b) of the The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR). - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?335891-GYM-MEMBERSHIP-mis-sold-to-my-boyfriend&p=3700013&viewfull=1#post3700013

 

My only concern about your letter is whether CRS are willing (or even able) to read such a lengthy letter. They sometimes send quite long replies which appear at first to look believable but, on closer inspection, most of their comments have little basis in law.

 

See how they respond.

[slick132]

Forgot to say, in the High Court case of OFT -v- Ashbourne Mgt Services Ltd, Mr Justice Kitchin made it clear that you can cancel in a variety of ways without needing to send a formal letter.

 

Cancellation of your DD mandate, a phone call or letter to the gym or telling the gym in person would all suffice.

 

See 16 (ii) of the Penal Notice made in the AMSL case - http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consumer-enforcement/ams/order.pdf

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

Thanks. I have not studied the whole Ashbourne case yet, I remember reading a summary of it last year but this bit escaped my mind. In light of this, i will phone up the gym tomorrow and ask them what i owe them, and have everything resolved. I will cite the case law in my phonecall and demand that i can cancel, because this is what the courts said a consumer is entitled to after all.

 

As for the CRS, we will see what they do next. I am sending a paper copy of the letter tomorrow, recorded delivery, and I have sent an email to them.

 

I must ask, how do these episodes usually end? Has anyone actually ever got taken to court before on here?

 

I think I stated clearly enough about their hassling on the letter, that if they bother me that would be unlawful and the court will take that into account.

Edited February 12, 2012 by veni_vidi_vici

[slick132]

Hi VVV,

 

If you are claiming to have been mis-informed about how easily you could cancel, you could say the cancellation date was when you tried to cancel, but were told you could not.

 

You should not have to pay any m/ship fees beyond that date.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

/i41.tinypic.com/168sa5z.jpg

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/wcjmdx.jpg

 

 

 

These are the developments in my situation. I need some advice on how i can counter their arguments basically. I am very under pressure in exams for my second year law exams because i need to get good grades for any chance of a shot at the Bar. I would really appreciate your help guys because i am a bit unsure as to the case law/statutes that make their demands here unlawful. They have basically did what Slick 132 said in post 3 here: "There will normally be something in your contract confirming that late payment and other admin matters will be dealt with by CRS or a third party.

 

If you read other threads here, you will find many where I've said that CRS admin Fees are not legally enforceable for various reasons.

 

Unfortunately, CRS will not agree and sometimes go to great lengths to explain that their fees ARE enforceable and have been agreed by various official bodies, such as the OFT or Trading Standards. This is basically rubbish !!

 

So you may have to deal with CRS about paying what you owe the gym but you will not have to pay CRS's extra fees."

 

 

Problem is, the county council have said everything including the cancellation of the contract has been passed onto CRS. So, Durham County Council won't let me cancel with them, i must deal with CRS. I have tried continuously since September, when i moved, to cancel the contract, but they have not responded. I am very annoyed and slightly worried because i am so busy with work at the minute.

 

I reassert that i am happy to pay the amount i owe to the gym but not the charges insisted upon by the CRS.

[slick132]

Hi VVV,

 

You haven't been very clear about whether you asked, when joining the gym, if you could cancel m/ship when you had to leave for Uni. If you asked them about this, how did they reply.

 

I know you were later told on the phone that you could cancel because of going away to Uni. I assume the gym told you this but can you say WHEN they said it.

 

Do you have a copy of the letter that you sent the gym, to which they failed to reply. What did it say (short version) and when was it sent.

 

Are you still paying the monthly DD's.

 

What month did you join up.

 

CRS have replied to you in a predictable manner but they are totally wrong in their assertions. Ignore them totally for now.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

Hi VVV,

 

You haven't been very clear about whether you asked, when joining the gym, if you could cancel m/ship when you had to leave for Uni. If you asked them about this, how did they reply.

 

I know you were later told on the phone that you could cancel because of going away to Uni. I assume the gym told you this but can you say WHEN they said it.

 

Do you have a copy of the letter that you sent the gym, to which they failed to reply. What did it say (short version) and when was it sent.

 

Are you still paying the monthly DD's.

 

What month did you join up.

 

CRS have replied to you in a predictable manner but they are totally wrong in their assertions. Ignore them totally for now.

 

 

1. I asked when I joined if I could cancel and they simply said I could if I moved more than 15 (i think) miles away.

 

My mistake that i didn't send my letter with recorded delivery (i.e. i have no proof). But, the letter basically gave them evidence of where I have moved to and also that I intend to cancel the membership because of this. I joined in June and I am still paying the DD's.

 

 

About the CRS's assertions, how should I deal with them apart from ignoring them? My problem is that Durham County Council refuse to take responsibility for the issue and simply say they have passed it on to the CRS. Even when, I tell Durham County Council that I can pay them my outstanding debts to them (but not the CRS's fees) directly.

[slick132]

Hi V's,

 

Thanks for clarifying what was said when you first joined. As they said you could cancel if you moved away, that is what you should now focus on.

 

Cancel the DD immediately to stop them taking further payments.

 

It's not so important that you didn't send the letter by Recorded post. BUT, do you still have a copy of it and, if so, please confirm the main points therein.

 

I'll look in later and draft a letter to send to CRS.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

Hi V's,

 

Thanks for clarifying what was said when you first joined. As they said you could cancel if you moved away, that is what you should now focus on.

 

Cancel the DD immediately to stop them taking further payments.

 

It's not so important that you didn't send the letter by Recorded post. BUT, do you still have a copy of it and, if so, please confirm the main points therein.

 

I'll look in later and draft a letter to send to CRS.

 

 

Thank you for all of the help, sincerely. I am under the most pressure I have had in my life with my exams coming up, so this really does ease my mind a bit that others are in the same boat and standing up to these people.

[slick132]

Hi VVV,

 

You didn't answer my Q above :-

 

You say you spoke to the gym asking to cancel but they said you couldn't, so you wrote to them but got no reply.

 

Do you still have a copy of it the letter you sent and, if so, please confirm the main points therein.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

Hi VVV,

 

You didn't answer my Q above :-

 

You say you spoke to the gym asking to cancel but they said you couldn't, so you wrote to them but got no reply.

 

Do you still have a copy of it the letter you sent and, if so, please confirm the main points therein.

 

 

I still have a copy of the letter i sent to the gym in hard copy. To paraphrase, it basically says i intend to cancel my membership by writing because i had already tried by phone and they had refused to cancel by phone. I also attached a photocopy of proof that i had moved to my new city in September. This phonecall occured AFTER I had replied to the first CRS letter a couple of days after i started this thread.

 

I think i am still paying the monthly DD's as the council refuse to cancel the membership with me. So basically, the council are totally making a mess out of this (by relieving themselves of responsibility all the way throughout and giving the problem to the CRS pre-emptively) and the CRS are chasing after me like idiots.

 

I joined up in June 2011.

[slick132]

The council will do little or nothing to help you resolve this issue and will say that they leave CRS to (mis)handle membership matters or disputes. It is pointless agreeing to pay the gym what you them, hoping that CRS will drop their admin charges as I simply don't believe this will happen.

 

From what you've said, I think you could cancel the DD mandate and argue that you were told you could cancel when you moved away.

 

You could drop CRS a brief letter as follows:-

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I refer to my membership with xxxx gym and confirm that I have now cancelled the DD mandate.

 

When I joined the gym, I was told I could cancel when I moved to attend University as long as it was over 15 miles away, which it was. Confirmation of this has already been supplied to you.

 

I originally continued to pay the membership fees because I was told I could not cancel the contract. I now realise that I had every right to cancel the membership because this is what I was told before I joined. Indeed, it was only because of this that I agreed to join. Accordingly, I am afforded protection by Section 5 of the CPUTR 2008.

 

I have no dispute that the matter of your admin fees is included in the contract terms and conditions. However, that does not alter the fact that such fees are effectively penalties and are not enforceable in law.

 

I will not be paying any more to you or to the gym and you should consider this matter to be in clear dispute.

 

In these circumstances, you must cease all collection activity until this matter is resolved. If you continue with any collection activity, your actions will be reported to the OFT.

 

I am very busy with my studies and have no time to waste on arguing with you. I therefore reserve the right to ignore further demands from you but may refer them to the OFT without further notice.

 

If you believe you have a case against me, feel free to take court action. As a Law Student, I will welcome the opportunity to vigorously defend against any such action.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

See what comes back but otherwise ignore them for now.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

The council will do little or nothing to help you resolve this issue and will say that they leave CRS to (mis)handle membership matters or disputes. It is pointless agreeing to pay the gym what you them, hoping that CRS will drop their admin charges as I simply don't believe this will happen.

 

From what you've said, I think you could cancel the DD mandate and argue that you were told you could cancel when you moved away.

 

You could drop CRS a brief letter as follows:-

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I refer to my membership with xxxx gym and confirm that I have now cancelled the DD mandate.

 

When I joined the gym, I was told I could cancel when I moved to attend University as long as it was over 15 miles away, which it was. Confirmation of this has already been supplied to you.

 

I originally continued to pay the membership fees because I was told I could not cancel the contract. I now realise that I had every right to cancel the membership because this is what I was told before I joined. Indeed, it was only because of this that I agreed to join. Accordingly, I am afforded protection by Section 5 of the CPUTR 2008.

 

I have no dispute that the matter of your admin fees is included in the contract terms and conditions. However, that does not alter the fact that such fees are effectively penalties and are not enforceable in law.

 

I will not be paying any more to you or to the gym and you should consider this matter to be in clear dispute.

 

In these circumstances, you must cease all collection activity until this matter is resolved. If you continue with any collection activity, your actions will be reported to the OFT.

 

I am very busy with my studies and have no time to waste on arguing with you. I therefore reserve the right to ignore further demands from you but may refer them to the OFT without further notice.

 

If you believe you have a case against me, feel free to take court action. As a Law Student, I will welcome the opportunity to vigorously defend against any such action.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

See what comes back but otherwise ignore them for now.

 

 

Please can you explain the bit i have highlighted?

[veni_vidi_vici]

And i have made some adjustments to the letter which hopefully you find ok:

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I refer to my membership with the gym and confirm that I have now cancelled the DD mandate.

 

When I joined the gym, I was told I could cancel when I moved to attend University as long as it was over 15 miles away, which it was. Confirmation of this with evidence had already been supplied to the gym both by phone, in person and via a letter which they have not responded to. It seems they are adamant the dispute is now your responsibility even though I have offered repeatedly to personally pay my debts to the gym.

 

I originally continued to pay the membership fees because I was told I could not cancel the contract. I now realise that I had every right to cancel the membership because this is what I was told before I joined. Indeed, it was only because of this that I agreed to join. Accordingly, I am afforded protection by Section 5 of the CPUTR 2008.

 

I have no dispute that the matter of your admin fees is included in the contract terms and conditions. However, that does not alter the fact that such fees are effectively penalties and are not enforceable in law. Therefore, it is in fact unlawful that you are insisting that I pay them.

 

I will not be paying any more to you or to the gym and you should consider this matter to be in clear dispute because you clearly don’t want to negotiate for a fair outcome since I did offer to pay the outstanding debt of £135 to the gym but not to your fees of £66.50. Please note that the offer of £135 does still stand if I pay that to Durham County Council directly.

 

In these circumstances, you must cease all collection activity until this matter is resolved. If you continue with any collection activity, your actions will be reported to the OFT.

 

I am very busy with my work and have no time to waste on arguing with you. I therefore reserve the right to ignore further demands from you but may refer them to the OFT without further notice.

 

If you believe you have a case against me, feel free to take court action. I welcome the opportunity to vigorously defend against any such action.

 

Yours faithfully,

[slick132]

Hi V's,

 

Given the attitude of CRS, I would NOT now be offering to pay any more for the fees to the gym. I would take this out of your letter.

 

Re your Q in post #18, the admin fees are effectively penalties and the arguments for this are the same as set out in POC's for credit card claims.

 

See here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?561-Credit-Card-Charges.-POC-for-N1

 

[Bang!]

They have set themselves up to be ignored, as they state "You can now only speak to us about this balance. DCC will simply refer you back to us if you contact them", while in DCCs terms and conditions - Term 17 part 3 states you are entitled to cancel.

 

If the chancers sending the letter can only discuss the balance, and DCC will only forward your concerns to these chancers, then there seems to be no way of ever resolving a dispute once they claim money is owed.

 

However, your contract is not with a normal business, and is with DCC who are a public body, and so must be open, honest, and accountable (states the NAO). Accordingly it is failing to be accountable to pass a complaint to a third party only willing to discuss the balance. Basically, its saying a public body will not accept complaints.

 

By all means send your letter, but most of these comedians work by threats your credit rating will be damaged, or you will be dragged through some court procedure, with all sorts visiting you at home.

 

Don't write a nice letter to the council. Send them a complaint showing you are majorly hacked off at their failure to adhere to their own contractual terms, and further failure to be accountable.

 

Before writing - call this lot...

 

http://www.lgo.org.uk/making-a-complaint/

 

...ask what they suggest, although they can only proceed once a complaint has gone to DCC - so they are likely to offer you some info, and to tell you to complain to the council. You can then explain the council prompted a third party to send you a letter stating the council will not deal with your issues and the third party will only deal with an alleged balance.

 

So when you write your complaint to the council, you can mention "Having spoken to the Local Government Ombudsman they have stated in the first instance I should submit a complaint to DCC. Contrary to advice offered in your chancer's letter, this complaint must be dealt with yourselves, and not be forwarded to them. Additionally, I wish to complain that DCC are acting in a manner to appear unaccountable...". Pad it, you're a law student.

 

If you want to be a real *******, include a FoI request asking how many of their accounts have been forwarded to the chancers prompting these letters - this should help remind them they are a public body and have a duty to be answerable.

 

It's then the council rather than you who need to jump through hoops.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Bang!

[veni_vidi_vici]

I am kind of worried guys, I have a very full schedule in the next couple of months and I really hope these guys don't actually take me to court over this (They know they have no case but are they crazy as well as stupid?) since I have exams (worst nightmare = court case when I am scheduled to have an exam).

 

I have sent them a letter with an amalgamation of the points here.

[slick132]

Hi V's,

 

Your worst nightmare will not happen !!

 

My experience of many years here working with gym cases is that the gyms or their admin companies will not take a contested case anywhere near a courtroom.

 

Concentrate on your studies and ignore CRS. If they send you anything you're not sure about, tell us and we'll halp.

 

[veni_vidi_vici]

Hi V's,

 

Your worst nightmare will not happen !!

 

My experience of many years here working with gym cases is that the gyms or their admin companies will not take a contested case anywhere near a courtroom.

 

Concentrate on your studies and ignore CRS. If they send you anything you're not sure about, tell us and we'll halp.

 

 

 

 

This is their latest reply to me, it terrified my parents at my hometown address who remain afraid.

[locutus]

Pff easy to solve.

 

1st send them the "doorstop" letter found HERE.

2nd ignore them. They're not gonna chance their hand in court incase they have to show up and try to justify their unjustifiable fees.