Time to enter a claim

[geryon]

Two and a half years ago I went over my overdraft limit with HSBC. I'm about to start digging for statements (which I know I've got as I never throw any of them away) but the actual amount I went over must have been no more than £200 or so. As I was away in London (I live in Canterbury) for a week, I hadn't read any of the letters HSBC sent me saying that I was over my limit and would be charged something like £35 for ever use of my Switch card.

 

Naturally, within that week the charges piled up quite high and in the end I owed over £500 to HSBC. Because I was unable to pay it back immediately, I had to take out a "managed loan" which I'm still paying back and my Switch card was deactivated and replaced with a Solo card that couldn't act as a cheque guarantee. My overdraft was also taken away.

 

It sounds like I have reasonable grounds for a refund. Does anyone agree?

 

Is it best to contact them by post or by e-mail/e-message? I would call them but I can get easily intimidated sometimes over the phone and I don't want to screw up my chances.

 

Thank you.

 

Dimitri

[geryon]

I have just finished going through all the statements I've collected since 2003. I've calculated a total of £634.00 in charges, not including any interest that was applied.

 

I'm definitely going to contact HSBC and claim that back. My main concern before writing to them is the managed loan I had to take out to repay my overdraft and many of the charges that were applied to it.

 

The loan I took out was for £1,030.00 with an APR 14.8%. It was in June 2004. I've still got nearly £400 of it to repay due to the fact that my repayments have had to be quite small and the interest rate has been high.

 

My question is, should I make any claim for the loan? I took it out in direct response and at HSBC's advice as a way to pay back the charges I was given and the amount I went over my limit so that I wouldn't incur any further extortionate charges (e.g. £72).

 

Can someone please give me any advice. I do realise that by doing all this I may have to enter legal action. Also, can someone tell me how I can calculate the interest on my claims.

 

Thank you.

 

Dimitri

[BankFodder]

If you were first able in court to win a judgment based onthe fact that the charges were unlawful - then certainly you should then consider taking some action on the load which you were sold to deal with those charges.

You have a hard job ahead of you, though.

[geryon]

If you were first able in court to win a judgment based onthe fact that the charges were unlawful

 

So do you really think I'll have to go to court? I'm prepared to do so if I have to but I'm really hoping it won't go that far.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Dimitri

[richardc]

We all hope that the banks will see sense but get prepared for a court case

[geryon]

I've written my letter to HSBC, using their e-message service on-line, requesting the £634.00 of charges they've enforced upon me in the last three years to be refunded. Although I didn't ask for any of the interest to be refunded, I did mention that the total of charges didn't include them and that I believe I'm also entitled to them.

 

I guess I just didn't want to push my luck, even if that money is mine.

 

After this, hopefully I can work on getting at least the interest on my managed loan back.

 

Thanks to everyone for all your help and I'll keep you all up to date as to my progress.

 

Dimitri

[dazza12]

It is better to contact them by post, preferably by Special / Recorded delivery.

 

Emails/emessages can be lost or ignored, with the above postal methods you have a receipt that proves it was sent and that it was received at the other end.

 

I would not contact them by phone under any circumstances. Remember the person you are speaking to has probably dealt with the situation many times before and knows what to say to put you off taking any further action. Similar advice for electronic communications.

[richardc]

Registered is not secure - too many get lost. Send Special Delivery.

[dazza12]

Registered no longer exists as it offered no benefit above obtaining a certificate of posting.

 

Recorded is designed for documents or items of a low value, but it is a proof of posting (and delivery - you can opt to have proof of signature). It guarantees delivery in 2 working days for first class. It has a cost of 66p in addition to the postage charge. I have had several legal documents delivered to me using this method.

 

Special Delivery has greater insurance, and will guarantee next day delivery if posted before a cut off time. It is of more use for valuable items where you would suffer a tangible loss if they went astray. However, it is very expensive, and only of use if you really need the item delivered next day.

 

Both methods offer a way to check the item was delivered, and you can obtain the signature for an extra charge. Both methods also use the same Track and Trace system and therefore neither should be less secure than the other - the only difference is the speed of delivery and the compensation level. The ultimate aim is to ensure you have proof the document was posted and received and both methods ensure this.

 

Personally, I have used Recorded for the DPA Letter and the Letter Before Claim. I may use Special for the later items however this depends on whether the timing is an issue.

[Bookworm]

Personally, I do unto them what they do unto me.

I sent them 1st class, and the letter is deemed received 2 days later.

If they sent me a letter and I denied receiving it, would they accept that as an excuse? No.

So I don't either.

[monkey_uk]

Registered no longer exists as it offered no benefit above obtaining a certificate of posting.

 

Special Delivery is now the recognised equivelant (sp?) of Registered.

 

 

 

Recorded is designed for documents or items of a low value, but it is a proof of posting (and delivery - you can opt to have proof of signature).

 

Correct.

 

It guarantees delivery in 2 working days for first class.

 

Incorrect. There is no guarantee at all. If you take that to the extreme, there is no guarantee that it will even be delivered.

 

Special Delivery has greater insurance, and will guarantee next day delivery if posted before a cut off time. It is of more use for valuable items where you would suffer a tangible loss if they went astray. However, it is very expensive, and only of use if you really need the item delivered next day.

 

Correct. It is a little known fact that you can also insure items against consequential loss. E.G If I sent you some train tickets in London, for you to travel up and see me to following day, and the tickets don't get there in time, you would have to pay the train fare yourself as the tickets are seen as having no value (well, maybe a penny or two for the card/paper they're printed on!!). However, if I insured the letter against consequential losses, I'd be able to claim back the cost of re-purchasing the tickets!

 

 

 

Both methods offer a way to check the item was delivered, and you can obtain the signature for an extra charge.

 

Free for Special Delivery, and currently £2.20 for Recorded (althuogh there will be an announcement about this soon).

 

 

Both methods also use the same Track and Trace system and therefore neither should be less secure than the other - the only difference is the speed of delivery and the compensation level. The ultimate aim is to ensure you have proof the document was posted and received and both methods ensure this.

 

Incorrect. Special Delivery goes through a more secure process (e.g the mail is kept in a secure area). Although I'm not saying noone of them go missing, just VERY few.

 

Personally, I have used Recorded for the DPA Letter and the Letter Before Claim. I may use Special for the later items however this depends on whether the timing is an issue.

 

I agree, I think I'll probably do the same.

[dazza12]

Free for Special Delivery, and currently £2.20 for Recorded (althuogh there will be an announcement about this soon).

 

The last time I used Special Delivery they insisted on a charge for a copy of the signature. When I complained about this I was told it applies to both methods. I regularly use Special Delivery as I'm an Ebay seller. When people try to claim they didn't receive a package, getting the signature usually ends in them backing down.

 

It is free to confirm delivery for both however.

[BankFodder]

I would have thought that the printout of the tracking screen would ne quite adequate - and free

[monkey_uk]

Free for Special Delivery, and currently £2.20 for Recorded (althuogh there will be an announcement about this soon).

 

The last time I used Special Delivery they insisted on a charge for a copy of the signature. When I complained about this I was told it applies to both methods. I regularly use Special Delivery as I'm an Ebay seller. When people try to claim they didn't receive a package, getting the signature usually ends in them backing down.

 

It is free to confirm delivery for both however.

 

There is no fee for a copy of the signature for Special Delivery, although there is currently a fee of £2.20 for a copy of the signature for Recorded Delivery.

 

What I have said is 100% correct (I work for Royal Mail if you haven't already guessed!)

[monkey_uk]

I would have thought that the printout of the tracking screen would ne quite adequate - and free

 

I agree BF, but if the organisation claims that they didn't get it then a copy of the sig could easily settle the arguement, though I agree there would be other ways to settle or dicount the arguement.

[Bookworm]

Certificate of posting: Free.

 

The question is: Do you want to make sure it gets there? Or do you want to be able to prove that you sent it? That's the difference, really.

[geryon]

Just to keep everyone up to date, I've received an acknowledgement of my e-message today and have been told that it's been forwarded to the complaints department who'll be in touch with me shortly.

 

Having said that, I just read someone else's response that sounds exactly what I'll probably end up getting so I've decided to write in paper to them.

[dazza12]

Was the account open before 2003? If so it's worth getting the prior information under the DPA. If you've been charged before then, you can claim for the last 6 years.

 

Seems a shame to let the bank keep the rest of the charges (if there is any)!

[geryon]

I've only had it for three and something years and I've checked every single statement and highlighted all the charges.

 

I'm not letting them get away with it.

[PAUL CARSON]

Hi Dimitri,

 

I dont think you can take any action against the loan as it is a seperate credit agreement for an amount equivalent to the amount of your overdraft at the time you contacted HSBC regarding the money they were demanding from you, or that you were having difficulty in paying. HSBC did not require, or force you to enter into that agreement, it was provided to you as a means to consolidate your overdraft by repaying it as a loan at the agreed APR. Also the amount of your overdraft at the time the loan was taken out could not, I assume include all the £634 in charges you incurred since 2003. The interest on the loan you have paid and continue to pay is something you agreed to pay for the loan itself.

 

I was in a similiar position to you and I wrote to the Head Office Customer complaints regarding £700 in charges which they refunded within 21 days. They used that amount to reduce my loan with them but they then refunded it into my current account after I disputed this. If they try and do the same thing to you, and you dont want the money to be used to reduce your loan then I would challenge it as it is unlawful for them to impose this condition onto you. The loan is a credit agreement and so long as you are not in default you do not have to repay more than the amount that was agreed to be repaid each month. If they claim that they are entitled to use the refund of charges to reduce the loan because they are simply putting the account back into the position it would have been had the charges not been applied, then remind them that this would be an admission that the charges should not have been levied and that they had no entitlement to them. If they were making a commercial settlement - paying you the money as a gesture of goodwill or to avoid court action, then they are not correcting the account, they are paying an amount of money sufficient to settle the complaint you made.

 

I dont think you will have to go to court - HSBC cannot establish any lawful entitlement to the charges, but you may have to start a court claim to get them to pay up. Good luck with this, I am sure you wil get all of your money back. Please keep everyone updated on your progress and here is a link to court guidance on claiming interest: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/howclaim/interest.htm

 

I think there is a spreadsheet program on this board that you can use to calculate the interest.

 

For anyone who might want use it I have pasted a copy of the initial letter before action I sent to HSBC. I think it is best to avoid using the online complaints procedure or your local branch as you are likely to just get a standard response referring you onto the Head Office address if you are not satisfied.

 

09 January 2006

 

The Manager - Customer Relations Department

HSBC Bank plc

Level 40

8 Canada Square

London

E14 5HQ

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Re: Overdraft, Card misuse and Unpaid item charges (‘the charges’)

Current Account XX-XX-XX XXXXXXXX

 

Between 30/06/05 and 07/11/05 you levied a total of £700 in ‘card misuse’, ‘unpaid item’ and ‘overdraft fee’ from my account. I have detailed the charges on the attached schedule.

 

I am writing because I believe the charges amount to a financial penalty and are therefore legally unenforceable. I will take action through the county court to recover them if they are not repaid within the next 21 days.

 

Your terms and conditions and the related correspondence make very clear that the charges are levied in respect of the contract being breached. Rather than being liquidated damages designed to compensate you for any actual loss, these charges are designed to penalise myself for a breach of contract and to generate profit. The law regarding penalties is well established and clear and in particular I refer you to the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. v. New Garage and Motor Co. Ltd. (1915).

 

Further, any terms purporting to entitle you to levy these disproportionately high charges from my account would appear to be contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083) and as such void.

 

My account falls within the ambit of Regulation 5 as I am a consumer. The charges constitute an unfair penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:

 

‘Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the object or effect of –

 

(e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation’.

 

On 26 July 2005 the Office of Fair Trading stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. 

 

Your charges do not reflect any actual or real loss, instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme.

 

If I do not receive payment of £700 by 30/01/06 I will start action through the county court to recover this amount plus costs and interest pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

Paul Carson

[geryon]

Thank you, Paul. That was very helpful and I'm very likely to use your template.

 

I'll make sure to update whenever I have news.

 

Thanks again.

 

Dimitri

[HSBC FRAUD]

Hi

 

If you send recorded delivery you can get confirmation as to when delivered from track and trace on your computor.

 

 

Regards

[geryon]

Here's on update on my situation.

 

On 13 March I received the following e-message acknowledging my initial letter (which was also in e-message format):

 

Dear Mr Provias

 

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your e-message dated 8 and 12 March 2006.

 

I have passed this matter to our Complaints Department who will be in touch shortly. The reference number for this case is:

 

Reference Number : **********.

 

Should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

I trust this clarifies matters.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Mr M Bowden

Manager Customer Credit Services

 

***

 

I didn't receive a further response so on Saturday 18 March I sent a final reminder that I'd be taking legal action on April 5... using your template (and changing it a little bit).

 

I haven't heard back from them yet. I kinda wish I could just enter the claim right now and not have to wait all this time.

 

If I have any news, I'll post on here.

 

Dimitri

[geryon]

I posted on the forum before it changed address and now my thread is gone.

 

Anyway, tomorrow it'll have been a month since I've first contacted HSBC about the £654 they now owe me and, although my messages have been acknowledged, I haven't gotten a suitable response or a refund so tomorrow I'll be making the claim through the courts.

 

Any last minute advice I might need before doing that?

 

Thanks.

 

Dimitri

[paulmc60]

Dimitri,

 

It would be advisable (if you haven't already done so) to warn the bank that you intend taking court proceedings to recover the charges, and give them a further 14 days to respond.

 

If you have already done that, go for it, and good luck.