LLoyds Business OD - Unaware of Personal Guarantee ***Case Struck Out and awarded Costs !!***

[toddle2u]

It was a builders merchants trade account so is different to this case

[kurvaface]

Are you able to share an indication of what points 6,7 and 8 of your argument were?

[Bigdebtor]

Toddle

 

Thanks for that. What was the outcome and is the case referenceable? What about the missing points 1,2, 6, 7. 8 etc. Are they irrelevant to this issue?

 

BD

[toddle2u]

There were basically due to the ambiguity of the wording and the common law principle of "contra proferentem" where ambiguity in a clause has to be strictly interpreted contrary to the interests of the party seeking to rely on it. The fact that the guarantee clause was not brought adequately to my attention and that I had not intention of entering into a PG.

[toddle2u]

BD

 

The missing points are not particuarly relevant to this case and have given an indication of them as above. Basically I chucked the kitchen sink in and muddy the waters with regards to the PG so much that they withdrew the case which was for £13K. I have used the same argument on another one and they have indicated they are also withdrawing and I am just waiting for confirmation from the Courts that it has been discontinued.

[Bigdebtor]

Toddle

 

Thanks for that. You have actually confirmed what I thought - If it were that easy for any supplier of goods and services to slip in a hidden personal guarantee clause to its standard T&C's then everyone would do so - and there would be no point in setting up limited liability companies.

 

I shall modify your excellent post to suit the specifics of my own circumstances - and let you all know outcome in due course.

 

Thanks again

 

BD

 

PS - I've tried to hit your star but it isn't working - has anyone else the same problem just now?

[toddle2u]

BD

 

I hope it helps and please keep me updated on the case.

[elsinore]

 

PS - I've tried to hit your star but it isn't working - has anyone else the same problem just now?

 

I've done it for both of us BD:wink:

 

Els

[GuidoT]

I have a similar situation and although I know a bit too late now, I used this as a a defence:

 

 

1. Paragraph 1 is denied to the extent that it is asserted that the Claimant let a vehicle under an unregulated Hire Purchase Agreement to the Defendant. The Claimant let a vehicle under an un-regulated Hire Purchase Agreement to x. The Defendant signed the agreement, not in a personal capacity but on behalf of the aforementioned company, now dissolv

 

2. Paragraph 2 is denied. As the Defendant did not enter into any such agreement, he could not have failed therefore to pay any instalments, or repudiate the agreement.

 

3. No admissions are made as to paragraph 3, 4 or 5.

 

4. The claim is fundamentally misconceived and should be struck out.

Edited December 15, 2011 by GuidoT

[peebeeh]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32246[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32245[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32244[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32242[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32243[/ATTACH]

 

1 - letter received today fro LloydsTSB solicitors

A, B, C, D - copy of agreement as received with letter

[peebeeh]

my previous post - I hope is clear to read - is there a better way to put up documents?

This has taken me completely by surprise - I do not remember it at all.

How does one proceed from here?

[peebeeh]

No a guarantee is certainly not a credit agreement; you personally were not advanced any credit. All you did was gratuitously agree to honour someone else's debts. You have to plead to the case which has actually been made against you, not the one you think should have been made against you so I think it is not only tactically correct, but also procedurally correct, to deny the claim as it stands on those grounds.

 

My defence is filed along the above lines - now they have come up with a copy guarantee agreement, which is still not a credit agreement, do I wait and see if they amend the claim?

[GuidoT]

Cannot really read it.

 

If you can scan in as a PDF and then attach to your post, you will find a paper clip icon when you 'Go Advanced' and that should enable you to attach the PDF.

[rebel11]

Dx100 – Instructions on uploading pdfs

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

[peebeeh]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32254[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32252[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32250[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32253[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32251[/ATTACH]

[peebeeh]

Page C - the £10.000 is surrounded by small print - barely legible

Page D - the boxes are - Name, Signature, witness name, witness signature, witness address

[GuidoT]

You will need to obtain the main agreement that this is a guarantee to.

 

I realise that the copy is redacted, but the only part I see that states it is a personal guarantee is the front page.

 

I will post up as a combined PDF shortly.

Edited December 16, 2011 by GuidoT

[GuidoT]

CAG.pdf

[peebeeh]

You will need to obtain the main agreement that this is a guarantee to.

 

I realise that the copy is redacted, but the only part I see that states it is a personal guarantee is the front page.

 

I will post up as a combined PDF shortly.

 

Do I need to ask for:

a) a fully legible copy of what has already been received - especially page C, which is full of illegible small print

or

b) a copy of the overdraft agreement between xxxltd and the bank

 

also

the signature does not state 'Director' after it but the front page states 'Directors Personal Guarantee' - does that indicate that I signed it as a director?

Edited December 16, 2011 by GuidoT
cpmpleteness

[GuidoT]

Yes ask for a legible copy and the document you are supposed to be guaranteeing. When you make this request say it is without prejudice to the position advanced in your defence.

 

If you put Director after your signature that would give you an argument that you did not sign in a personal capacity. I do not see how the front page helps you, that title tells me the document is produced for signature by an individual to guarantee the debt to a firm.

Edited December 16, 2011 by GuidoT

[peebeeh]

Yes ask for a legible copy and the document you are supposed to be guaranteeing. When you make this request say it is without prejudice to the position advanced in your defence.

 

If you put Director after your signature that would give you an argument that you did not sign in a personal capacity. I do not see how the front page helps you, that title tells me the document is produced for signature by an individual to guarantee the debt to a firm.

 

Thanks - I have requested as you advise

Edited December 16, 2011 by GuidoT

[peebeeh]

Good morning and Happy New Year to you all.

I have received in today's post a legible copy of the agreement from LloydsTSB

I have attached the previously illegible page 3 of this as a pdf (I hope)

 

My application to strike them out is being heard on Thursday morning - please may I ask for any help that you can provide.

[peebeeh]

I have received no copy of any overdraft agreement between xxx ltd and the bank, which I am supposed to be guaranteeing.

 

Their covering letter states that the balance claimed relates to and outstanding overdraft balance in relation to xxx ltd

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Lots of metions of what can be claimed

from the guarantor but little about the

legal status of the guarantee, eg signed

as a director or personal guarantee.

Just going to alert the site team that you

need urgent help.

Brig.

[peebeeh]

Lots of metions of what can be claimed

from the guarantor but little about the

legal status of the guarantee, eg signed

as a director or personal guarantee.

Just going to alert the site team that you

need urgent help.

Brig.

 

Thanks Brig.

I am not sure if my defence that there is no Credit Agreement will be sufficient. A Personal Guarantee is definitely not a Credit Agreement.

(the particulars of claim stated that "the claim is in respect of a credit agreement between the claimant and the defendent")