Caught out by change of Pay & Display rules Main Road Sidcup

[Beesnees]

Hi guys,

 

We don't go out for a meal that often, so when we do, it's quite galling to get caught out like this.

Last time we used this car park (probably around 6 mnths ago), it was free on Sundays.

Apparently, the pay & display rules were changed around a month ago, so every day is now a pay & display day.

 

Naturally, we didn't know, and didn't have any reason to suspect the rules governing use were changed, so we didn't walk up to the sign to check it.

Nobody wittingly chooses to play a sitting duck for the sake of the cost of a pay & display ticket, so this smacks of entrapment to us.

Please see images below for more info.

 

Do we have any grounds for appeal?

Any help/advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

 

PCN - p1

 

http://i56.tinypic.com/15zrzhs.jpg[/img]

 

PCN - p2

 

http://i56.tinypic.com/2rzyz2d.jpg[/img]

 

View of new sign from the parking bay we used:

 

http://i53.tinypic.com/rm47pj.jpg[/img]

 

The sign – don't know if this is relevant, but it's facing the opposite direction from our viewpoint.

 

http://i56.tinypic.com/33nyrk4.jpg[/img]

 

view back from the sign to the parking bay we used (far end of car park)

 

http://i51.tinypic.com/10h9ekn.jpg[/img]

[sailor sam]

Sorry but seems pretty clear to me. Ignorence is not grounds for appeal although you could try it by getting it in straight away before the 14 days expires.

[Beesnees]

Hmm, I understand the principle that ignorance is no defence in law sailor sam, but there's not much point getting an appeal within the 14day deadline if it's not likely to succeed.

 

I was hoping we might have grounds on the basis of inadequate signage/warning of change of use, etc.

If that's also closed off to us, I'm prepared to face enforcement up to bailiffs (unassisted by the local constabulary) or CCJ.

I no longer care about my credit rating.

 

Does anybody know if they are likely to go beyond this?

My only real concern is a garnishee order on my bank account, for which they already have details coz of existing arrangements for paying council tax.

[crem]

why on earth would you want a £60 parking fine to go all the way up to bailiff enforcement, by which time you will probably be hit with a bill of 3 or 400 pound?

[Beesnees]

I had no intention of letting them in, let alone paying them, so short of breaking down my front door, how are they going to enforce?

[Jamberson]

They'll clamp the car and tow it away if you don't pay.

 

The best thing to do is appeal - a very reasonable letter explaining the circumstances. They might cancel it. If they don't, I really would consider paying and not letting it progress.

[sailor sam]

Hmm, I understand the principle that ignorance is no defence in law sailor sam, but there's not much point getting an appeal within the 14day deadline if it's not likely to succeed. I was hoping we might have grounds on the basis of inadequate signage/warning of change of use, etc. If that's also closed off to us, I'm prepared to face enforcement up to bailiffs (unassisted by the local constabulary) or CCJ. I no longer care about my credit rating. Does anybody know if they are likely to go beyond this? My only real concern is a garnishee order on my bank account, for which they already have details coz of existing arrangements for paying council tax.

 

But the signage is clear! At the moment the penalty is £30 although as I said before, if you get an appeal in quickly explaining that the parking times had changed from when you were last there, they may cancel it. As other have said, why allow it to get worse for the sake of £30?

[crem]

But the signage is clear! At the moment the penalty is £30 although as I said before, if you get an appeal in quickly explaining that the parking times had changed from when you were last there, they may cancel it. As other have said, why allow it to get worse for the sake of £30?

 

 

Opps! I missed the 50% discount period! I can't believe anyone would allow £30 to escalate when the option to pay such a low fee is still on the table.

[Beesnees]

Quote

They'll clamp the car and tow it away if you don't pay.

 

And what else?

They'd be doing us a favour.

A 14 yr old car is worth scrap value only, and we have another banger in storage we can press into service.

 

Quote

But the signage is clear!

 

Yes it's clear alright, if you take the trouble to walk up to it to read it.

It's not visible from where we parked, and in fact is facing away from us towards the back fence/wall of the car park. And there's no other sign (for example, at the entrance) to warn users of the changed rules.

 

At least then we would have had a chance to see it on our way out of the car park, and made a beeline straight back to the ticket machine to make our parking compliant. Yet such a sign was noticed later at the entrance of another car park which had also been the subject of the same rule change, so clearly this is not an unreasonable expectation.

 

It had been free to park on Sunday for years prior to this change

- at least since 1986 when we moved into the area.

 

So every time we used it on a Sunday over the last 25 yrs or so, we were obliged to check the sign just in case the rules had changed since we last used it?

 

Was it really an unreasonable assumption that the status quo remained in place on this occasion as well?

If we had any idea that such a rule change had been made, or was indeed possible, we would not have made such an assumption.

 

Quote

Opps! I missed the 50% discount period! I can't believe anyone would allow £30 to escalate when the option to pay such a low fee is still on the table.

 

Then you don't understand me Crem.

Yes, it's 'only' £30.

What a bargain.

 

But my attitude would be the same if it was 30p (well, almost!).

 

I object on principle, and I accept that principle may be today's Winslow Boy

- a luxury no one can afford to defend any more.

 

I just hate the idea of my council using what looks like underhand tactics to raise revenue from unsuspecting mugs like us.

 

So ok, I'll appeal anyway just for the hell of it.

Why make it easy for them?

 

If I can win a TfL YBJ pcn appeal, who knows?

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice.

If it comes to crunch point in the end, I probably will cough up despite all the bravado.

 

Mrs Beesnees is of a slightly nervous disposition, and the prospect of bailiffs at her door doesn't sit well with her ability to relax.

[sailor sam]

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about this which is understandable. It will cost you nothing to appeal and I suggest using the 'you didn't know the rules had changed' approach. But as I mentioned before, the council may argue that it is your responsibility to check the signs and most people will look at the p & d machine to do this. You came on here asking for advice and we have given it based on the information you have given. What you do about it is obviously up to you but if the council rejects your appeal, my advice is to pay the discounted amount because (again in my opinion) otherwise it is likely to cost you more in the long run.

[havinastella]

And what else? They'd be doing us a favour. A 14 yr old car is worth scrap value only, and we have another banger in storage we can press into service.

 

Yes it's clear alright, if you take the trouble to walk up to it to read it. It's not visible from where we parked, and in fact is facing away from us towards the back fence/wall of the car park. And there's no other sign (for example, at the entrance) to warn users of the changed rules. At least then we would have had a chance to see it on our way out of the car park, and made a beeline straight back to the ticket machine to make our parking compliant. Yet such a sign was noticed later at the entrance of another car park which had also been the subject of the same rule change, so clearly this is not an unreasonable expectation.

 

It had been free to park on Sunday for years prior to this change - at least since 1986 when we moved into the area. So every time we used it on a Sunday over the last 25 yrs or so, we were obliged to check the sign just in case the rules had changed since we last used it? Was it really an unreasonable assumption that the status quo remained in place on this occasion as well? If we had any idea that such a rule change had been made, or was indeed possible, we would not have made such an assumption.YES, of course it's down to you to check whether you can park legally or NOT! You fecked up, noone else. Live with it, pay the fine and move on!

 

Then you don't understand me Crem. Yes, it's 'only' £30. What a bargain. But my attitude would be the same if it was 30p (well, almost!). I object on principle, and I accept that principle may be today's Winslow Boy - a luxury no one can afford to defend any more. I just hate the idea of my council using what looks like underhand tactics to raise revenue from unsuspecting mugs like us.

 

So ok, I'll appeal anyway just for the hell of it. Why make it easy for them? If I can win a TfL YBJ pcn appeal, who knows? Anyway, thanks for the advice. If it comes to crunch point in the end, I probably will cough up despite all the bravado. Mrs Beesnees is of a slightly nervous disposition, and the prospect of bailiffs at her door doesn't sit well with her ability to relax.

 

 

Jeeze

[Beesnees]

Not so much a chip on the shoulder as an overwhelming feeling that we've been stitched up. But you're largely pushing against an open door. I've already acceded to the advice given here, and acknowledged that I'll probably end up paying after exhausting the appeals procedure (and hopefully them as well). As for the rest, I would question your underlying assumption that we were unique in believing that nothing had changed since our last visit. If all they got out of this little exercise was £30, that would be a poor return on the cost of all those new signs and Sunday personnel.

 

And so to bed.

[Beesnees]

YES, of course it's down to you to check whether you can park legally or NOT! You fecked up, noone else. Live with it, pay the fine and move on!

Err, I'll try that appeal first if you don't mind. Don't believe in caving in at the first hurdle. 'Sides, sounds like you could do with a stiff drink instead of that lager stuff.

[havinastella]

Err, I'll try that appeal first if you don't mind. Don't believe in caving in at the first hurdle. 'Sides, sounds like you could do with a stiff drink instead of that lager stuff.

 

Haha, I don't do spirits!

 

But in all seriousness, I have driven since 1994, always had a driving job and have driven over 1,000,000 miles.

 

How many tickets in that time? NONE.

 

Why? Because its always down to me to check whether I can park legally or not. It's really that simple.

 

I hear your plea, as for all my driving, I got done doing 70MPH on a 3 lane Duel carrigeway last month. My crime, being in a company van. 17 years of driving and didn't realise there were different rules for company and private vans. As stated earlier, Ignorance is not an excuse and I wanted to fight it all the way to Magistrates (my thread is on peppio)

 

Sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and I do feel for you.

 

JOg

[green_and_mean]

The charges changed on June 6th and Bexley gave out warning notices for the first month and it was advertised as required by law

 

http://www.bexley.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=8651&p=0

 

if you don't want advice why did you bother posting you may just as well wait until the cost goes up to £400 and they start taking your goods away!!

[Beesnees]

As stated earlier, Ignorance is not an excuse

Also stated at post #7 - I get it. I'm resigned to this being a lost cause, but I'm still inclined to appeal anyway. As someone said above - costs nothing. And although highly improbable, you never know.

 

Bexley gave out warning notices for the first month and it was advertised as required by law

Not much use when you visit maybe twice a year. Apparently, the signs were up for one week - I found that out from a parking attendant. One wk out of a min. of 25 yrs of free Sunday use. It may be legal, but it's hardly a fair rate of exchange. Why not just leave the signs up? For a year? Six months at least? Because then you don't catch mugs like us.

 

if you don't want advice why did you bother posting

Not quite sure where you're getting that from. You couldn't have read all my posts above, where you'll find at least two concessions that I'll end up paying if/when the appeal fails.

[Al27]

Get the off-street parking places order. If the charges have been updated, the parking order needs to change too.

[Beesnees]

Get the off-street parking places order. If the charges have been updated, the parking order needs to change too.

 

And if it hasn't been? I do what about it precisely? How would I know if it's been changed? And is it remotely relevant to an appeal?

 

On a more general point havinastella, yes, we are responsible for making our own assumptions. I should have realized - I wondered why the car park was virtually empty on a Sunday afternoon. On previous visits, it's been around 50 - 75% full around this time of day. Ours was just one of two cars parked there at the time. I don't think the other car had a P&D ticket either, and if there were more cars parked there, we might have spotted the tickets on display. All academic now anyway.

 

Obviously, people would rather park on street to avoid even the cost of a P&D ticket. Nxt time, I might do the same to 'recoup' my losses, or else use the free car park outside Morrisons, which is also an option. We still live & learn, even at our ripe old age.

[Jamberson]

And if it hasn't been? I do what about it precisely? How would I know if it's been changed? And is it remotely relevant to an appeal?

 

You've been given some sound advice there, mate. Don't throw it back at him! The order is the document which gives the council legal authority to issue PCNs. It should state the level of parking charges correctly if it does not (because they have gone up) then it's invalid and the council can't enforce payment.

 

Ask the council for a copy and check what it says about charges for parking. If it's faulty, you have a case.

 

By the way, although the discount is only valid for 14 days, in practice it will stand if you appeal and lose before a Notice to Owner is issued to you, which is 28 days. So if you get an appeal in before then, and they refuse it, you should still be able to pay the discount.

[Beesnees]

You've been given some sound advice there, mate. Don't throw it back at him!

 

As a complete ignoramus/novice in these matters, I thought I was asking some perfectly valid follow-up questions. Where did you get the idea I was throwing it back at him? Am I not permitted to obtain further info. if I think it might be relevant? That's all I was doing, & nothing more. Anything else comes from you reading something into it that wasn't there, or at the very least unintended, so at least give me the benefit of the doubt.

 

OK, so now I have a clearer idea of what these orders are about. Although I will check them in any case, I doubt that Bexley's legal authority to impose charges at this level is either in doubt or the main issue. I wasn't querying the level of the fine, but the extension of P&D times into a period that was hitherto free for over a qtr century without adequate warning or signage for infrequent users like us. Will these orders help me determine this question?

[Gick]

Beesnees,

 

Will these orders help me determine this question? Yes. It will detail the operative days and times (You may even find that you will be able to park for free Christmas Day).

 

(if you don't want advice why did you bother posting) Not quite sure where you're getting that from. You couldn't have read all my posts above, where you'll find at least two concessions that I'll end up paying if/when the appeal fails. I suggest that you re-read some of your own posts as they are quite aggressive. Please remember that those giving you their opinions are doing so from their experience and have no axe to grind.

As a complete ignoramus/novice in these matters, I thought I was asking some perfectly valid follow-up questions. The forum encourages OP's seeking further amplification on answers given, but this can be done without appearing to attack the responder. Of course it is possible that you are naturally assertive, so that being somewhat on the back foot through your own mistake has caused your approach to be brusque.

(Bexley gave out warning notices for the first month and it was advertised as required by law) -

Not much use when you visit maybe twice a year. Surely this is all the more reason to check that you are complying with regulations? It is more understandeable for someone who regularly uses a facility to miss any change in the immediate aftermath of such change. I would imagine that people anywhere in the country would be aware that 7 days a week charges have become the norm since Sunday trading has been extended. There has been sufficient publicity about the subject to lead any prudent person so check first.

 

Obviously, people would rather park on street to avoid even the cost of a P&D ticket. Nxt time, I might do the same to 'recoup' my losses, or else use the free car park outside Morrisons, which is also an option. We still live & learn, even at our ripe old age. Is it any wonder that land owners are led to use PPC's to discourage some people from using their 'free' facilities when their intention is to visit elsewhere than their stores? I suggest that rather than 'living and learning' you are wanting to change the majority to your way of viewing matters.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Gick
clarity

[Jamberson]

Bees - you do realise that people giving you help here are not being paid by anyone? They're just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They're giving up their time freely to try and help people like yourself.

 

I understand you had "follow-up questions" but when you post "And if it hasn't been? I do what about it precisely? How would I know if it's been changed? And is it remotely relevant to an appeal?" - you could supplement it with some acknowledgement that you're asking a stranger to help you. For example, I note in your reply to me that you tell me to give you the benefit of the doubt - but there's something missing - you forgot to say thanks for me sitting here typing out a load of info to try and help you.

 

Anyway, I don't much care what you decide to do, but if you want to try and avoid payment, the traffic order is a possible route to go down.

[crem]

Although I will check them in any case, I doubt that Bexley's legal authority to impose charges at this level is either in doubt or the main issue.

Don't have such confidence in a council's ability to update the order. Many of them screw up at this point.

 

I wasn't querying the level of the fine, but the extension of P&D times into a period that was hitherto free for over a qtr century without adequate warning or signage for infrequent users like us.

Yes, but in essence that is an increase/change in charging if they change the chargable periods

 

Will these orders help me determine this question?

Yes, because the order should state the chargable times and fee. If the order still states Mon to Sat charging, then despite whatever signs the council wish to put up in the carpark, Sunday is still free.

..

[Beesnees]

Is it any wonder that land owners are led to use PPC's to discourage some people from using their 'free' facilities when their intention is to visit elsewhere than their stores?

This car park is free to all users, Morrisons customers or not, so long as you don't overstay your welcome: 2hrs max, (no return within 3hrs). After that you get an 'invoice' courtesy of Euro Car Parks. The free for all was a condition the council laid down when granting them planning permission for building their store at this site. As a non-local, you couldn't have known, so I'll ignore the charge that I would thereby be taking unfair advantage of a local trader's largesse.

 

I suggest that rather than 'living and learning' you are wanting to change the majority to your way of viewing matters.

Wish I could ignore this as well, but under the circs I'll just confine myself to saying you are free to suggest whatever you want, so long as you extend to me the same freedom to reject it.

 

but there's something missing - you forgot to say thanks for me sitting here typing out a load of info to try and help you.

Please see last para., post #9.

 

Crem (and Jamberson) - thanks again.

[Beesnees]

Gentlemen,

I hope I'm still on talking terms with some of you - at least those of you whom I have so far miserably failed to offend, despite my very best efforts. I have asked a friend to obtain a copy of those orders for me, as advised by some of you above. He wrote back as follows:

 

That is very annoying – think it would have caught us too.

Yes quite happy to try to assist. I take it I should be enquiring specifically about the Main Road Sidcup car park – and if asked further – when did the free parking on Sundays change – and can I have/purchase a copy of said O-S P P O.

I have interrogated the Bexley.gov.uk site ( after waiting for it to be repaired having seemingly crashed) and found a few of those orders but none for this car park.

 

I had assumed these orders would be borough wide. Is it the case then that each car park has its own orders? So my friend (yes, amazingly I still have a few) would need to obtain the orders for the facility where the PCN was issued? And, if anyone knows, approx. cost of these orders plse? Thanks.